72. Holy Intimacy in Marriage: How to build emotional, spiritual and physical connection in marriage for Catholic brides

MATURE TOPIC ON MARITAL INTIMACY: If you are around your children, earbuds or headphones are advisable :-)

Welcome back, Sisters in Christ! Thank you very much for your patience!

We are in the Third Week of Lent. How has it been going for you? How may we pray for you?

This is the second half of the interview with Dr. Sarah Bartel, Catholic sex and marriage expert. The first half of the interview was published last year: Episode 48.

(The original interview was conducted on April 9, 2025.)

In this episode, we explore the path from emotional connection to holy intimacy, with Dr. Bartel discussing the importance of prayer and conversation as the foundation for a holy, healthy relationship, and steps towards sacred intimacy. Dr. Sarah Bartel shares practical steps, healing insights, and a vision that restores God-given dignity in marriage for husbands and wives, especially Christians who have experienced trauma or misconceptions about the marital union before marriage.

Key Takeaways:
• Holy Mass as a model for intimacy and unity
• communication that respects human dignity and fosters holy desire
• initiation ideas from subtle to bold
• reclaiming lingerie for Christian wives and playful imagination
• prayer that calms the mind and deepens presence and connection
• weekly date-night rituals that build friendship
• foreplay, physiology and physical tips for sacred intimacy
• respectful boundaries and language for spouses
• support for pain, low libido and exhaustion
• words of support, prayers for healing after sexual abuse for women, suggestions for healing and a path forward
• courses for wives and husbands and how to join: Dr. Sarah Bartel's "My Delight" course on https://canafeast.com

Dr. Sarah Bartel on Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/canafeast/

"My Delight" Podcast on Apple Podcasts and all podcasting platforms

My Delight with Sarah Bartel - Podcast - Apple Podcasts https://share.google/TPfxAJdXE903WozPr

On YouTube:

https://youtu.be/RvOIcOC6UVQ?si=gdeOH4PKSqttLWkB

Thank you + God bless!

Transcript

Emotional Intimacy As The Foundation for a Strong, Holy + Healthy Marriage

Dr. Sarah Bartel 0:00

Highlighted Interview Quote: "Emotional intimacy is such an important foundation for our physical intimacy. This is what we see in the Mass too, Sheila. We the way God has designed our experience of the Mass is that we have emotional connection first. We have a conversation. God has words for us in the Liturgy of the Word, and we respond, have the Responsorial Psalm, and then we respond in prayer with the general intercessions. And we're supposed to be, you know, what the church calls us to be is to be fully, consciously, and actively participating in the Liturgy.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 0:33

So then when we time for the when it comes time for the physical connection in the Liturgy of the Eucharist, we've already been prepared by this conversation we've had back and forth with God. And we've brought, you know, our whole heart and our experiences of the last week, and we've offered that up along with the offering of the gifts of bread and wine, you know, that's we kind of give ourselves along with those gifts too. And then we receive it back as God giving Himself to us in Communion. So in the same way, husband and wife need to have conversations before they make love so that they can build that emotional intimacy and a regular weekly date night, which can be something as simple as just phone-free time after the kids are in bed once a week."

Sheila Nonato 1:15

INTRO: It proliferates our culture, what we watch, what we listen to, what our culture consumes. Porn culture and OnlyFans generate big income for its creators while pushing aside the creator and his divine purpose for sexuality. We have turned the view of sex upside down, from something holy and divinely ordained and created to a commodity that can be bought and sold. How do we recover the lost dignity of God-given sexuality? Through Christ, who came to redeem men and women from our human failings.

Sheila Nonato 1:55

In His love and mercy, God blessed marriage and the family as a reflection of the Most Holy Trinity. Let's hear the second half of my interview with Catholic intimacy and marriage expert Dr. Sarah Bartel to answer some questions like: How is sex within the marriage covenant holy? How can we increase communication between spouses to lead to happier marriages? And how can we heal from past wounds to have a healthy and holy view of marital intimacy? If you're interested in the first half of the interview, it is in our past episodes. And I am extremely honoured that you have come back to listen, to watch our episode, and we hope you have a good you continue to have a Blessed Lent,

Holy Mass As A Model For Union

Sheila Nonato 2:45

and we will keep you in our prayers and please keep us in yours. Thank you and God bless.

Co-Host 2:56

Hello and welcome to the Veil in Armour Podcast. This is your host, Sheila Nonato. I'm a stay-at-home mom and a freelance Catholic journalist. Seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the inspiration of Our Lady, I strive to tell stories that inspire, illuminate, and enrich the lives of Catholic women to help them in living out our vocation of raising the next generation of leaders and saints. Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour Podcast, where stories come alive through a journalist's lens and a mother's heart.

Sheila Nonato 3:27

Welcome to the Veil and Armour Podcast. Hello, Sisters in Christ. Last , we touched upon hell. More about that later. Now we're going to be talking about experiencing Heaven in marriage. And since this is a mature topic, I would advise those listening to please wear your earbuds or headphones if you are around your kids.

Sheila Nonato 3:45

I'm honoured to welcome Dr. Sarah Bartel. Dr. Sarah Bartel is a moral theologian and a Catholic sex and marriage coach. She is the host of the "My Delight" podcast for Catholic women. Together with her husband Nathan, she has served thousands of Catholic couples through their canafeast.com online ministry, which includes their "Abundant Marriage" course and "The Little Way of Marriage" workshop.

Sheila Nonato 4:08

Her newest course, "My Delight," is a groundbreaking program designed to undo knots of shame, ignorance, and isolation to help engaged and married women learn how to develop holy, healthy intimacy with their husbands. She's a mom of five based near Seattle, Washington, where she loves hiking, reading Jane Austen, feeding her kids salmon, and heading off on adventures. Sarah earned a B.A. in humanities and Catholic Culture, and an M.A. in Religious Studies from Gonzaga University, and she completed her PhD in moral theology from the Catholic University of America. Dr. Bartel draws upon magisterial documents and the Catholic moral tradition to bring clear, faithful, and practical answers about what is and isn't allowed in the bedroom and other important issues on marital intimacy.

Sheila Nonato 4:59

May we start off with a prayer, Dr. Bartel?

Dr. Sarah Bartel 5:02

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Lord, we glorify you and praise you and thank you. Thank you for creating us in love and for love. Thank you for your beautiful plan for man, woman, marriage, and sexuality. For your beautiful plan for family life. And we just pray that you'll bless our conversation, that your Holy Spirit will work through our words and thoughts to draw out what will be most helpful, most inspirational, most educational and insightful and healing for all the beautiful women listening, that you will shine your light, Lord, on what needs to be most held out to help us all understand better how to celebrate our sacramental marriages in the marital embrace in a way that really glorifies you and honors your design for women as well as man to thrive in this area.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 6:03

And Lord, we pray for all those who've experienced frustration, hurt, pain, for all those who feel like they're broken, that you will give them comfort and guidance and especially just reassurance that they are not alone and that there are answers and that there's help for all these struggles in this inner sanctuary of marriage, the marriage bed and the marital embrace. And we just love you, Lord, and glorify you.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 6:32

And we just pray that every Catholic marriage will be a true authentic reflection of the love of the Trinity, that there will be open hearts and open sharing. Um, and we just pray for especially the much-needed gift of emotional intelligence and emotional connection and marriage as the foundation for all of this. Mother Mary, please pray for all the women involved in this podcast, all those listening for Sheila, and um for our conversation to be a little bit of an echo of your encounter with Elizabeth at the visitation.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 7:08

That as you two beautiful women rejoiced in praise and magnifying the Lord for the great things that He has done for you in your fertility, in your feminine genius, that we women also be able to have an encounter and a connection that magnifies the Lord as we reflect on the great and good things he has done in making us women and using us to be um to be bearers of God's love and of his plan for life into the world. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Sheila Nonato 7:59

Thank you so much for that beautiful prayer. And when you mention communication, good communication is essential in any relationship. Do women in your program, do some of them have sort of, um, difficulty in initiating or or mentioning, you know, do they wait for their husband? Does is this a frustration for husbands that the women wait? Um, how do we

Culture’s Broken View Of Sex

Sheila Nonato 8:20

sort of bridge the gap if it is?

Dr. Sarah Bartel 8:22

Yeah. Oh, that's such a great question. Initiating can be really um challenging if you think you're initiating, but it went right over his head, or you've never really, as a wife, figured out a way to initiate that feels comfortable to you or leave it to your husband. It, um, it can go a lot of different ways. And so I do in my course, I have a whole section on communication skill, just in general, you know, to help you know what is good communication.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 8:53

We start with a positive. Instead of complaining about what we don't like, we ask for what we'd like. You know, we choose our timing well. We um signal if we want to have an important conversation, we ask, is this a good time? You know, because I'd like to talk with you about something, when would be a good time we can chat about it? Right. So, you know, creating that space to have a good communication, connecting first at the heart-to-heart level and assuming best intent and starting up gently and lovingly.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 9:22

All these are just general good communication skills that are going to really be helpful as we communicate about love making and marriage. And then with initiation, yeah, if it's a struggle for a woman to know how to initiate, um, maybe she could ask her husband, be like, well, what would be some ways that would, you know, be meaningful for you or, you know, would work well for you for me to try to initiate? And I'll just throw out some ideas from one star spicy to five star spicy. ... Zero, one star spicy would be like maybe just a text message or you just, you know, having a conversation. I recommend doing this earlier in the evening, the worst time to initiate, or right when you're about to go to sleep and you're both really tired.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 10:08

And then you bring it up, you know, because one or another of you might be just too tired to make it happen in that moment. But if you've sort of signaled a few hours earlier that evening, like, hey, maybe tonight would be a great night to, you know, go to bed early and have some time together, um, or use whatever words are comfortable in your marriage.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 10:28

But I recommend doing it a little earlier on, if if not just scheduling it outright. Like maybe on the weekend, look at your week ahead and be like, okay, if we wanted to make love two or three times this week, what would be our best night or afternoon or morning to try for? But um, yeah, you could send a little text message. Um, if you use really neutral, mild words, you you need to add something so that he knows what's on your mind, you know, like a winky emoji or something, right? Okay. Or you could write a little note, or you could just say something like, I'd really love to spend some time with you tonight um in bed, or you know, can we go to bed early? Or something like that. Um, and then moving up, you know, it could be some much more suggestive physical affection and touch earlier in the evening, right?

Dr. Sarah Bartel 11:17

Beyond just the, um, the, you know, more friendly affection that I talked about earlier in our conversation. Um, or it could be um something like, you know, on the the five stars end of spicy, you just slip in, just show up with nothing on and might get an idea of what's on your mind. And, you know, out from your shower and into the bedroom and you haven't put anything on yet, or maybe just the towel, right? Like, "Hey, come on over here, you know?" Um yeah, so you can be bold, you can be subtle, um, but it's something where it's helpful to talk about it and also helpful just to try. You gotta kind of throw some spaghetti on the wall and see what works and what doesn't, you know, what land feels like okay, I could do that. Um, but uh yeah, some things might kind of flop and that's okay, just laugh together.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 12:15

But I had a wife who I coached recently, and she and her husband went on a weekend getaway and she had bought some aphrodisiac foods like strawberries and almonds. She had probably researched that these were, you know, apparently aphrodisiac. And then, um, as they were hanging out in their hotel room, she asked her husband, hey, want some strawberries or some almonds? And he was like, Okay, I guess I'm gonna use a snack. And he was just eating them. He did not pick up that she was alluding to anything else.

Dr. Sarah Bartel, Catholic sex + marriage coach: God's plan for the marital union

Dr. Sarah Bartel 12:40

So I had to tell her, like, look, if that was what you were trying to do is initiate, you need to use a few more words than that, you know, so that you can communicate this idea to him. Because he was thinking a snack. Okay.

Sheila Nonato 12:52

Um, okay. So it's kind of like setting the atmosphere, the mood. Um, and I think in your handbook, you said lingerie is okay. Because yeah.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 13:03

So we dress up for our wedding, okay, right? And then so it makes sense to dress up for the renewal of our wedding vows. Totally okay. It's up to each woman what she feels comfortable with. It can be really nice to help remind yourself, I'm not just, you know, I'm not just this person who's responsible. Like if you're a mom raising young kids, you know, and you have spit up on your shoulder on your shirt or peanut butter smears on your pants, right? It can be really helpful to take all those clothes off. And then when it's time to get together with your husband, or even earlier in the day, maybe you have a special lacy bra or undies that you can wear earlier in the day before you make love.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 13:41

So even underneath this, the shirt with the peanut butter smear and the spit up on it, you know, you're a feminine, beautiful, lovely woman who's a bride, and you can kind of be thinking of that throughout the day before you come together. But yeah, you know, you can dress for the occasion. But for some women, maybe lingerie makes them feel objectified or they connect it with, they think, you know, oh, it's just only, you know, "porn women" wear that kind of thing. And so then they just feel like ridiculous or whatnot.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 14:09

Um, there's no, you don't have to wear lingerie. You can certainly work on changing your mindset around it and be like, okay, absolutely no, it's okay. Good women also wear lingerie, and this is totally fine. And, you know, I'm a married woman and I can dress up in a feminine, lacy, selfy, beautiful way. That's okay. Um, but another obstacle might be maybe you just feel itchy and cold, right? And so here's my run, my lingerie tip. How about imaginary lingerie? I think imaginary lingerie is so great because it always fits wonderfully. It's never itchy, it's always the perfect color, you know.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 14:45

And so you can tell your husband about your imaginary lingerie that you're imagining you're wearing or ask him to describe it. Uh, you could ask him to, you know, trace it on you. And then you two can talk about together. And just that act of imagining together does so much to help make a beautiful bridge between your everyday life and then this special world of um, you know, kind of this oasis that you need to go to together mentally. Um, this place set apart, the Garden of Eden, you know, where you can be man and woman together, naked and unashamed.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 15:16

But yeah, there'd be lots of different there are um mentionables is a model-free lingerie seller. So you and your husband could look together on mentionables and you know, choose something without you being worried that he's looking at other women's bodies. Um, and ginger and peach is a Christian lingerie seller who has a lovely shop online. Ginger and peaches or peach, anyway, something like that.

Sheila Nonato 15:40

Yeah. Okay. Well, um, and I was reading your handouts. Uh, you were talking about spiritual tips and you were you mentioned the "Song of Songs" and the Book of Tobit and prayer, because that's what, uh ,Tobit and Sarah did um on their wedding night. How important is that also in yeah, setting the mood really? And um perhaps maybe if if a woman or the man is uh a little bit nervous, hesitant about um about sex, that having that grounded in prayer can sort of help them to maybe relax and feel more free. How how has it been for the women in your program program when they've incorporated prayer?

Dr. Sarah Bartel 16:28

Yeah. Well, it's really something I think um can be so beautiful to help women and men in marriage connect their spirituality with their sexuality, to be able to pray about their love life, to be able to pray about it in your own private prayer life, to ask, you know, to bring intentions about your love life to prayer with God, um, privately. But you can also pray together for these intentions for your love life. And you can also pray together before or during or after your love making together, just as a reminder that this is holy ground, that God is the one who made sex. And this is, you know, an expression of love and of and an occasion of grace. St. Thomas Aquinas said, "As often as a husband and wife in a state of grace enter into the sexual embrace, they grow in grace and glory." So God is

Communication Skills That Spark Desire

Dr. Sarah Bartel 17:20

no stranger to what is going on here. Um, sometimes we kind of think in our our our head, like, oh, my sex life is over here on one side, and then my love life is this totally other corner of my, you know, my life and never really connect those two. But to be fully integrated, whole and holy, we can bring it all together. And it is so beautiful. Yeah, if you can um kind of like how we pray grace before meals, you can just, you know, pray with your husband, maybe early in the early stages before foreplay really gets too steamy.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 17:52

Um, if it's new and you feel, you know, a little awkward, then I would just, you know, just as you're beginning to cuddle and connect a little bit, just to um take some time, make the sign of the cross, ask God to bless you too as you come together, ask him to help you to um express your love for each other and help each other feel loved and lovable and you know, bless the experience with mutual delight.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 18:17

And you know, you can make it real too, you can be like, and Lord, you know we're tired. Please fan into flame the glowing embers of libido that are there so that we can really, you know, experience desire and arousal more. Um, and then you can ask him, you know, bless this time together, may it bear fruit in just, you know, the love we show each other in the days ahead and in the love we pour out for our children and community. Um and you know, you can praise and thank God for this wonderful man that you're married to, and you can ask your husband to praise and thank God for, you know, what it is he loves about you. Um, and you can keep it simple or go on as long as you want.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 18:56

Um, but yeah, you can can do that, you know, even during the steamy moments too, once you get up um more confidence and adding in that spiritual connection can really enhance the experience. And another wonderful thing it does, Sheila, if you're praying, you're not making your grocery list in your head, right? And so you can explain that to your husband. If husbands are like, well, I would feel really uncomfortable or awkward praying during love making. If the wife could tell him, well, you know what? Um, it'll really help me connect with, you know, with you and with God and help me really focus on what we're doing and enhance it for me, he might feel more up for it. Or it could be a thing where after, you know, after things have finished and you're cuddling there together, then you too can um give thanks to God for your marriage and your chan your time coming together and all of that. Yeah.

Sheila Nonato 19:52

Okay, beautiful. And um also I guess part of again the setting the scene or maybe having even a date night, right? Like maybe even getting dressed up and having sort of a that mindset that it's it's gonna be a beautiful evening together, you know, however it however it ends up being. Uh sometimes weird, you know, people are too tired, maybe. But you know, at least you're there, you know, and cuddling is um also, you know, a form of intimacy. Um, but you in uh one of your handouts you were talking about sort of mental tips for better intimacy, and you mentioned building emotional connection. And earlier earlier you mentioned about emotional intelligence. How do these two link up? And how, yeah, how do we sort of set the stage for this this beautiful date night as a couple?

Dr. Sarah Bartel 20:43

Oh yeah. Yeah. So this is in my "Enhancing marital intimacy guide for women," in which I share nine skills for body, mind, and spirit to help Catholic wives enjoy intimacy with their husbands more. And that is on my website at kenafeast.com slash I think it's nine dash skills. Um, so maybe I don't know, Sheila, if it's possible to put a link.

Sheila Nonato 21:05

Yes, absolutely.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 21:06

Oh, great. Yeah. Yes. Okay. This emotional intimacy is such an important piece. Um and I think it we often over can overlook it or it gets put in the background, especially as life gets busy and you're taking care of kids and doing your jobs. Um, you know, you can end up sort of passing like ships in the night. And then in the night, when it's time to come together, you know, in love making, it's hard to to um, it's hard to get there, you know, to to have that bridge or that transition to become so physically intimate when we haven't been emotionally intimate. That's it, emotional intimacy is such an important foundation for our physical intimacy. This is what we see in the mass too, Sheila.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 21:53

We, the way God has designed our um experience of the mass is that we have emotional. Connection first. We have a conversation. God has words for us in the liturgy of the word. And we respond, you know, we have the responsorial psalm and then we respond in prayer with the general intercessions. And we're supposed to be, you know, what the church calls us to be is to be fully, consciously, and actively participating in the liturgy.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 22:22

So then when we come time for the when it comes time for the physical connection in the liturgy of the Eucharist, we've already been prepared by this conversation we've had back and forth with God. And we've brought, you know, our whole heart and our experiences of the last week and we've offered that up along with the um, with the offering of the gifts of bread and wine, you know, that's we kind of give ourselves along with those gifts too.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 22:45

And then we receive it back as God giving himself to us in communion. So in the same way, husband and wife need to have conversations before they make love so that they can build that um, that emotional intimacy and a regular weekly date night, which can be something as simple as just phone-free time after the kids are in bed once a week. You know, or you're neither of you is gonna get a phone or laptop or device out and you're just gonna spend time maybe sipping tea or wine and just talking, um, or maybe watching a show together, but in a cuddly way, right? Or maybe you take a walk or play a board game or do a craft project or talk about your, you know, make start dreaming together about your next family vacation or dreams about where you want your family, you know, what your goals are for the next five or 10 years, or reminiscing.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 23:36

That's another great way to build emotional connection is, you know, think together. Well, what are the things we're most proud of that we got through together in the last five or 10 years? Um, what are the ways you and I have grown most? Um, asking open-ended questions is really great for building emotional intimacy. You know, questions that are more than just yes, no, but you know, that give the answer is um it sets up an answer that's a story in some way. Like "What was your strongest emotion today? " Or, you know, "Who are the friends you feel closest to at this season in your life and how has that changed?" Or for Catholics, we can have Catholic-specific open-ended questions.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 24:14

"If you could have lunch with any saint in our church, who would you have lunch with and why? Or what's your favorite feast day? Or what pilgrimage destination would you always, you know, would you love to go to someday if we could?" Um, those are all great conversation starters. Um, but going for a walk together can be a great way to have a date night. For me, date night is anything that's at least 30 minutes of

Initiation: From Subtle To Bold

Dr. Sarah Bartel 24:40

you two focusing on each other on more than just logistics, where you're not talking about what needs to get done, you know, as for the household or for jobs or, you know, what needs to be provided for the kids or, you know, for the people that you care for, but just beyond just those necessities of life and something where it's more of a heart-to-heart connection. So date night can look a lot of different ways, but definitely have that, a time like that at length once a week.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 25:09

And then if that is what precedes your love making, it's gonna be so much better when it comes love making time. Yeah. And think about it in terms of like your weekly, daily, monthly, and yearly rituals of connection. A date night is a weekly ritual of connection. Um, every day, though, you should have at least 20 minutes together just to talk. Just, you know, you two talking with each other.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 25:31

And then once a month, maybe a bigger date night where you actually go out somewhere together or go have an experience, get babysitting or grandparents watching the kids, or, you know, something a little more intentional. Or maybe it's just a fancier date night at home where there's a little more intentionality around it. Um and then every year, think about going on a marriage retreat or a weekend getaway together every year. That is a great annual ritual of connection um goal that can really help support your marriage and help keep you connected and strong.

Sheila Nonato 26:04

And I guess this emphasizes how, you know, sex is not just a physical connection in the literal sense, but there's an emotional connection and there's a spiritual connection, spiritual aspect of it. And yeah, it's not just, you know, like you were saying, that the sort of example of eating, and you just don't stuff your stuff your face with a sandwich, right? Um, you can eat it more elegantly and um, or you know, what whatever, a piece of steak. Like you just don't, yeah, just you eat eating elegantly, there's sort of an art to it and also a science.

Sheila Nonato 26:38

But um but yeah, it's sort of a bit the big picture. It's not just, you know, yeah, the act of eating. But um so in your nine skills uh handout, you also talked about the physical tips, so sort of logistics, I guess, but but in a deeper way. Um this this could be very helpful for newly married or engaged women who actually don't, if they've saved themselves from marriage, they don't know, they don't know what to expect. Um, what tips can you can you give them to help them prepare?

Dr. Sarah Bartel 27:12

So that's really good. So everything we've talked about regarding emotional intimacy really is important and applies. But then physically, let's look, let's think about eating. Suppose that um suppose we just put a chicken breast in the oven, no seasoning, you know, just put it on a baking sheet in the oven and a potato, and then took it out once they're cooked, put it on straight on the table, no plates or tablecloth or utensils. And then, you know, you and your husband just with your bare hands and without talking to each other, just grab the at the potato and the bear chicken and just, you know, eat it.

Sheila Nonato 27:49

Yeah.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 27:50

It is eating. Food goes into your body, but you're really missing out on what it's supposed to be. And then compare that to, you know, seasoning chicken with salt and pepper and garlic and herbs, and you know, making mashed potatoes with butter and cream, and then a beautiful fresh salad with all the crisp colors of like bell peppers, um, setting a tablecloth, uh, putting placemats down, matching china, light a candle on the table, put a vase of flowers there, maybe some beautiful music is playing.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 28:21

You, you cue up some classical music or jazz or whatever you like to listen to. And then you pray grace before your meal. And then as you and your husband elegantly dine, you know, like by cutting your food, you know, serve each other first. Oh, would you like some potatoes? Oh, thank you. You know, being courteous and thoughtful of each other. And then you have a really great conversation, ask each other how your day was.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 28:45

Well, you're going to not just eat and physically get food into you, you're going to be nourished physically and spiritually. And the physical nourishment is going to be so much better. What's happening at the physical level as we sit at the table that's beautifully laid out and we smell the steam coming off of the chicken and the garlic and the herbs. And, you know, there's our beloved husband there. We see the candle. We are relaxed. We begin to salivate, we begin to anticipate the meal that we're going to have. And we're able to enter into that. As you take your first bite and chew, it breaks down the food. And, you know, all these processes are being being cued by your brain into your body to help you receive that nourishment and help your body assimilate that.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 29:35

And that is why foreplay is so important. This is why foreplay is so important. Because we need on the meta, that's all a metaphor for what happens physically in love making when it's all set up right. So that you set the scene in your bedroom, you clear the clutter out, you have some items in your bedroom that are really evocative for you. You know, maybe um a flower,

Lingerie, Mindset, And Playfulness

Dr. Sarah Bartel 30:00

a silk flower or something, or a picture from your honeymoon, or like a special stone that we, you know, maybe you picked up on the beach when you took a walk together. You know, little touches like that are a huge remind you of your connection. Um and, you know, maybe you light a candle on your nightstand and you take time, you know, to all the things we talked about, to cuddle, connect, have the emotional connection, pray.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 30:25

And then just as we are going to kind of choke on our food, that dry chicken and bake and that potato, as you gnaw on it in your dry mouth, it's gonna stick going down and it's gonna be like, oh man, you know, it's hard for our bodies to receive that. That's similar to what happens if we just go from our regular life of taking care of all the things, doing the dishes, bringing the kids to their activities, and then rush, rush, rush, doing laundry, folding it, putting away. And then we go to bed, and then, okay, it's PIV intercourse time.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 30:58

And, you know, oh, you know, that it's it's really not how we're designed to flourish in our sexuality. It's not how God designed us women. We need that transition time and we need lots of foreplay and we need to be relaxed first in order to be able to receive the gift of our husbands in a way that our body rejoices in and responds to well. So some massaging, some talking, maybe laughing, um, you know, or maybe um telling each other romantic or sweet or affirming things.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 31:34

But physically, women need minimum 20 to 30 minutes of foreplay that includes stimulating um the organ that God gave women that does been designed solely for sexual pleasure, and that's the clitoris. Um, and for some women, it can be too sensitive and it can cause pain to stimulate directly there. And so indirect stimulation is gonna be the way to go. But um God didn't put those 8,000 nerve endings that he gave women for sexual pleasure, he didn't put them inside the woman's anatomy, inside the vagina.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 32:09

They are at the clitoris, and so that is why it's super important to engage in lots of lots of foreplay that includes that and other erogenous zones on the body. There are plenty of them, um, in order to prepare her for the act of intercourse. And the foreplay is sex also, just as much as the intercourse part is as well. Um, it's it's all part of it, all part of that attunement, that connection, that give and take, and the processes that the body, that woman's body we got to find it to go through to um to make intercourse pain-free and enjoyable are what are being um activated during foreplay.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 32:54

The cervix retracts, the vaginal walls expand, um, the natural lubricant inside the vagina um, you know, is for many women, um, they will naturally self-lubricate, you know, as they get more stimulated, not always. So then using a lubricant like almond oil or an over-the-counter lubricant can be really helpful as well. It can be helpful during the foreplay, you know, to reduce friction and increase better sensation. Um so those are some tips there physically. And then I also want to remind women um to urinate afterwards because that will help reduce your risk of urinary tract infections.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 33:36

So within about an hour or so, you can cuddle and enjoy and bask in the afterglow afterwards, but then be sure to get up and go pee so that you can flush out any bacteria that got up, you know, among all the activity that might have made their way out the urethra. And um, and then I just want as to remind, just to clarify that it is illicit morally for the woman's orgasm to be before or during or after her husband's orgasm, as long as it's in the same love-making session. So if he climaxed and and she didn't, he can help then bring her to climax, um, or her climax can be during the foreplay part. You know, she he can stimulate her all the way to her climax and then um they can join together in the the PIV intercourse portion of the night's proceedings. And um, or also, you know, she could have a simultaneous climax with him there. Usually that is best achieved if they are able to find a way for um clitoral stimulation to continue happening for her while he is inside, whether it's manually

Praying Before Lovemaking

Sheila Nonato 34:40

or getting friction and you know, aligning bodies in such a way that there's some friction in the right area. So you mentioned the do's.

Speaker 4 34:49

I'm sort of I saw your list of the don'ts and the do's and the don'ts, but um, I think I have to get this out of the way because you know, that famous infamous movie "Fifty Shades," that's not allowed, right? No.

Speaker 5 35:03

No, we don't. No, no, no. The whole like the whole ethos, you know, the whole like moral spirit of what should be happening between husband and wife in lovemaking is this should be an expression of their loving total mutual gift of self, you know, and this is something where they're respecting each other's personhood. So anything that is degrading or controlling or good ninging, you don't want that. So yeah, that includes um right, anything from yeah, like "Fifty Shades of Grey" type stuff, anything that SNM, S and M or bondage, no, none of that. And I would say, even in the words that we use with each other as husband and wife, let's keep them respectful and not demeaning or vulgar.

Speaker 5 35:51

Um that, you know, there's no like official, you're not gonna find in the Catechism anywhere, like thou shalt not use crude word. But I think that this fits the spirit of what we're aiming for so much better if we can use language that is respectful. It can still be steamy. All the nouns and adjectives that are involved in this um activity in between husband and wife, when you pair up those nouns and adjectives, they can be quite um exciting, but they can also, you know, be respectful and honoring each other's masculinity and femininity in ways that are not um gonna uh offend our you know moral sensitivities here.

Sheila Nonato 36:30

Because yeah, at the heart of it, we are all created in the image and likeness of God. And God is holy, sex is holy. And anytime an individual is denigrated, um, or we're not respecting the human dignity of the person because sex is not just body, as we, you know, you've been talking about, it's also the soul, right? Um, so we we have to maintain that respect and that dignity of the person, um, but also embrace that it is holy and God made it for man and woman to enjoy. Um and I'm also wondering, was there anything else that I missed that you that we need to know um that women in your course have sort of uh brought up with you that you you think that we, yeah, many women can benefit from?

Dr. Sarah Bartel 37:17

Well, I would just say, especially I bet all the good women who listen to your podcast, I bet they're good women who are doing lots of good things in the world and are busy, and many of them are moms. And it can be really hard to find the time and the energy to come together with our husbands. And I just want to encourage that it is possible to prioritize it and make time.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 37:40

It doesn't have to be, you know, this exhausting amount of frequency like I talked about. You can set aside, you know, one or two days a week where you can surrender and let go and trust that the world is going to keep running and the kids are gonna be okay if you make time to relax and um, you know, have time for yourself and also time for your husband. I think um, as women in North America, we often really get sucked into the cycle of thinking like, well, good women are busy and depleted and doing everything for everybody and, you know, that um, you know, might feel guilty about taking time for rest for themselves or doing things that are fun for themselves.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 38:20

That's actually really important to be able to do in order to be resilient and joyful and fill your cup up so that you can, you know, um honor the beloved daughter of God that you are. You're a human being, not a human doing. Then also serve better in the ways that you serve in your vocation. And also, it can really help with your mindset with um prioritizing that relaxation that's important and that delight that's important in order to be a bridge into intimacy with your husband.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 38:54

Um, because you're only going to be a mom, you know, for a certain number of decades of your life. And then you're gonna keep being a wife. Our marriages really are the foundation. A thriving marriage is the best gift you can give your kids. And um, and we need to keep nurturing that in order for marriage to be strong and endure, even past the years of raising our kids. So I guess my point here is just remember that you're a wife first, not a bar first. First, you are a daughter of God and you are yourself, and then you are a wife, and then you are a mom.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 39:25

I think it's really easy for us in North America to get really sucked into this world of total momming where it sucks us dry and we do, we just totally prioritize and focus on all the mom things because we think only that is important. And it's actually a disservice to our kids. And in other cultures, it's not always that way, like the French. There's this famous, well, there's a book Bringing Up Bebe, where Pamela Druckerman, the author, compares French models of motherhood to American models. And the French moms, they take care of their minds more, they're more intellectual, they let their kids do a little more for themselves. You know, they don't hover as much as we do in North America.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 40:02

Anyway, I think that's really important and healthy and balanced, and that can help you realize, like, okay, it's okay. You know, if I'm starting up things with my husband and we're getting into it a bit, and then a kid comes knocking at the door, we can tell them we're having mommy and daddy tied nail. I'll be with you in a little bit, you know, if they're old enough to understand that, or like set up a movie for the kids. Anyway, just that whole um where where we place our priorities that, you know, we can, it's okay to claim the time and energy for ourselves and then for our husbands. And the kids are still gonna be okay. You're still gonna be a good mom. Yeah.

Speaker 4 40:42

And finally, just to touch upon sort of the issue of self-care, you had sort of mentioned. Um, so medically speaking, so pain with sex is not it's not normal. So you need to go and see a doctor. Um, and low libido can also be helped uh

Date Night Rituals That Bond

Sheila Nonato 41:00

if you see see your doctor, correct?

Dr. Sarah Bartel 41:03

Well, yeah, okay, um, Sheila, this is really an I think an instance where we see, um, that women are not actually treated as well in culture as men are. There is so much, there is so much medication and government funding and studies on erectile dysfunction, which affects a certain percentage of men, not most men, but some. Okay, but between 60 to 80 percent of women have experienced pain during intercourse, and there are very few studies and medications and help for that.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 41:38

There is help, but I do, and I'm glad you brought that up, that um that it should never be painful. And if it is, please stop and don't force yourself because when a woman forces herself to keep making love when it's painful, that reinforces in her brain that wiring, that connection between sex and pain, and then it just makes it even harder to entangle. You need to stop and seek the causes and get help and treatment.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 42:01

And there is help. Usually it um it could be pelvic floor physical therapy, it could be working on anxiety, it could be dryness that um maybe an uh especially after menacpause, if um, a woman gets a prescription from her provider for 1% estradiol cream, uh, estrogen cream that can help with with postmenopausal vaginal dryness. Um, and yeah, do talk to your obguin and see if there are any physical causes.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 42:27

A lot of times there aren't physical, physical causes that can be found for the pain, but it might just be that um the couple's never spent enough time in foreplay. And, you know, they just need to give it the 20 to 30 minimum minimum minutes necessary for foreplay in order to help her open up and relax. Um, and there are coaches who like um Jess Sites has painfreeintimacy.com. And there's others out there too that are coaches specifically to help women with pain and intercourse. So, yes, um, do seek help. And then low libido also, you know, maybe a libido is just fine, but you think it's low because it's lower than your husband's spontaneous libido.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 43:09

But if you're feeling like, you know, once a week or once every other week sounds fine, that's not low libido. That's just a desired difference between you and your husband. But um, breastfeeding, um, the prolactin and breastfeeding, it does suppress libido and stress suppresses libido and exhaustion suppresses libido. Um, because our libido hangs out in our parasympathetic nervous system, which is when we're in rest and digest. You know, it's not essential for survival that we desire love making.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 43:38

And so our bodies work just the way God designed them to when we're stressed or depleted or taxed in other ways, um, or, you know, sometimes yeah, with breastfeedings. For some women, even being pregnant suppresses our libido because your body's gonna prioritize the functions that are necessary for survival first. Um, but yeah, usually if women give themselves more better self-care and more rest, and then work on that emotional connection with their husband and then their mindset and work on foreplay, then libido falls into place.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 44:10

It might not look the way they think it ought to look. They might not um, you know, out of the blue, then start wanting to make love five times a week. Uh, it might be that they are good with, you know, once or twice or every other week, or, you know, two out of two times in three weeks or whatever. That is a functioning libido. Praise God. That's a gift. Um, you shouldn't try to force yourself to, you know, but to um it causes performance anxiety, right? If we think, oh my gosh, I have to want sex five times a week. And, you know, that just wipes me out just thinking about it. Um, that's it's not actually a medical problem there. That is an expectation problem.

Sheila Nonato 44:53

And finally, I I really want to go back to your program. How did it all start?

Dr. Sarah Bartel 44:58

Oh, yeah. Well, my husband and I had an online Catholic marriage enrichment program, and we still do, called Abundant. And through it, we help couples get on the same page and experience more joy in their marriage. And um, you know, we have communication skills in there and just lots of wonderful exercises. Um and in our emails, a young woman reached out to me and she said, You know, my husband and I, our marriage is so great. He's my best friend. We get along really well. There's just this one aspect that's not working. And I said, "What do you mean it's not working?" She said, "It doesn't fit." And as I um had more of an email back and forth with her, I realized, and I asked, okay, well, tell me what's going on. I realized, "Oh my gosh, she was raised in such a rigid home with that was super religious and super all about like just no sex till marriage." That was the only message she ever heard about sex. Um, that she just had a ton of anxiety around sex and arousal.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 46:01

And I said, " I think I can help you with that." Would you like to try some coaching calls with me and see if I can help? And if it works, great. And if not, I'll just give you all your money back. But I I think I can help you because I can teach you what the church really teaches, which is that it's holy and good, like you and I've been talking about, Sheila. And it worked so great. At one point, she emailed me back and she's like, We did it, you know, lots of times this week. And now I can see why people like t

Dr. Sarah Bartel 46:26

his. And I thought, oh, okay. Well, I wonder if anyone else would like help with this. So at the time I was active on social media and I put it out on our Instagram. I said, I'm thinking of creating a course to help Catholic women enjoy lovemaking with their husbands. Would anyone be interested? And we I was flooded with a huge response.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 46:44

So I put the course together and the rest has been history. I just keep, you know, getting women flocking to it and um really beautiful things happening inside it through God's grace. It's been, I think about three years now that I've been offering my delight twice a year, once in the spring and once in the fall, you know, as a three-week, three-month cohorts. Um, and now my husband's actually started for the first time offering a course for men.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 47:11

He has a six-week course for Catholic husbands called Holy Desires. So that's been really neat to see him venture out into that as well. And we have some couples now that are both in his course and my course. So they're kind of getting double duty, you know, both the husband and wife are both doing the work. So it's really, yeah, really been a blessing. We I realize that there's not a whole lot out there to help Catholic women specifically with lovemaking. There are a lot of other wonderful Catholic marriage programs for marriage in general.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 47:43

But when it comes specifically to sex, um, there's still a lot of room for uh development in this area. So I figured, okay, it's, you know, it's I was a little scared, like, okay, am I going to be a Catholic sex lady? And then lo and behold, God, I found, you know, he had prepared me, he's with me, he's bringing the women and um just really working through this. So I'm, I just give him all thanks and praise and glory for it.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 48:07

I think he really cares about his beautiful beloved daughters, and he doesn't want them to be frustrated and feeling isolated and struggling and suffering. I think he really has a heart for wanting his beloved daughters to feel freedom and joy and rejoice in this gift that he's created for marriage. So I just really feel his delight in this work and his tenderness for women. And is that why you called it my delight? How did that come about? Um, it was kind of inspired. Uh, I'm not sure, Sheila, exactly where that phrase uh came from. I thought it was from Song of Songs.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 48:46

And then when I reread the Song of Songs, I realized, oh, it's actually not in there. Um, but I felt a confirmation the very first time I announced the program and put an email out to those on our email ministry list the morning that I was gonna send that email. I was reading in my Magnificat devotional, you know, that has the daily mass readings and morning prayer and evening prayer and reflections from the saints. Well, I was reading morning prayer and I saw in the psalm for that morning prayer, my delight. And it was just like God told me, Sarah, I'm with you in this. I delight in this.

Foreplay, Physiology, And Pleasure

Speaker 5 49:20

Um, but yeah, it's it's in the Psalms and it's also in some other Old Testament books, like "Jerusalem will be my delight," or you will be called, "No longer will you be called desolate, but you will be called my espoused and and you'll be my delight". Maybe an Isaiah or Hosea. I kind of forget. Anyway, it was from the Holy Spirit, however, it came.

Sheila Nonato 49:41

There's actually a really beautiful Christian song that I've been playing in the car with my kit with my kids. And the the phrase or uh the chorus is "I delight myself in you." And so when I play, I played it recently. I was thinking about your course because that's the title of your course. But uh, for women who are interested in joining, when when is registration? How many do you take? And where do they go to start out?

Speaker 5 50:06

Okay. Well, come to www.canafeast.com/mydelight and that'll get you on the wait list. And then you also, once you join the wait list, you also will just automatically get that nine skills guide for on body, mind, and spirit for enhancing marital intimacy. And I open the course in the spring. Um, I enroll the week of Valentine's Day. So that second week of February, usually Monday through Thursday, is the enrollment period for my spring cohort. And then in the fall, it's usually the second week of September that I'll enroll for the fall court. And then we meet from, you know, all the way up through a good part of Advent. Um, I haven't set my dates for my fall enrollment period. Um, but yeah, usually it's right there in the first or second week of September.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 50:55

Yeah.

Sheila Nonato 50:55

And your your husband's course is also on the same website?

Dr. Sarah Bartel 50:59

Oh, yeah. It's so www.canafeast.com and then look around. It might be canafeast.com/holydesires , on our canafeast.com website, like the wedding feast at Cana, so canafeast.com, um, there should be a link to his course as well. Um, just right there on the main page. I hope there is. We just uh he'll just

Sheila Nonato 51:19

I'll put the links I'll put the links in the show notes. I'll put them.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 51:23

lovely. Yeah, that's great. So was there anything else that you wanted to add? Um ,this is just, um, hang on, let me think. I think there was. Okay, yeah, I want to say a word to women who may have experienced sexual abuse that um that was that this is such a a tragic thing that shouldn't have been done to you. And um, you deserve healing and care, and that God wants that for you. And, you know, when we think about like birthday cake, most of us love birthday cake, right? It's so nice and we associate it with celebration and coming together. Um, and when we're little, you know, if you had your first birthday, maybe mom made you a special cake just for you and you've had a little bit of it, right?

Dr. Sarah Bartel 52:15

And and so we grow up usually liking birthday cake. And even if we don't love cake, we just like the ritual of coming together and singing the happy birthday and lighting the candles and serving up the cake, right? And for a woman who is sexually abused, it's as if her first experience of of cake, of birthday cake, was someone stuck their hand in the cake and then threw it at her.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 52:36

And so she thinks, I don't like birthday cake. I don't want anything to do with that because she was hurt by it. And I think that can help women understand why they have struggle with sex in marriage if they've been abused in the past. You can learn to like it, but you need to be healed and then you need to be reintroduced in a loving way, a way free from pressure and expectations on your own terms to taste and nibble the cake, you know, and and then like feel safe with it, you know, in a reassuring way.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 53:07

So I just wanted to share that in case that helps women out there who have that experience in their past and are despairing about like ever making peace with sex. It is possible. And I will be praying for all of those for all of those women who have that experience, as well as everyone listening to your show, Sheila.

Sheila Nonato 53:26

Thank you. And did you want to close with a prayer?

Dr. Sarah Bartel 53:28

Sure, let's do. Yeah. In the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Lord, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you for Sheila's care and openness and courage. Thank you for all the good women, Lord, who just want to serve you and want to honor you in their marriages and also are striving to make peace with lovemaking, to find joy and freedom in it. I pray for all the women who feel burdened by sex and feel like it's a chore or an obligation that they will find their way to feeling that burden lifted, to finding it as a place of enjoyment and an oasis in their weeks and a place where they are welcome to find comfort and pleasure and even rest and delight.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 54:17

And Lord, I just ask your blessing for the renewal and restoration of sex in marriage and in culture, that we can all really honor and glorify you through this gift instead of using and abusing it as has been done so much. And I just want to give all praise to you, Lord. Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be. World without end. Amen. In the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Sheila Nonato 54:52

Thank you so much for your time. Sorry, I have to my throat is um I've had a cold for two weeks. No worries. Thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. And I hope my questions were clear and um respectful. I was trying to read, I was praying about it actually and reading the Bible. So just so that you know what what I what's coming out is inspired by the Holy Spirit. But um wait. Okay. But yeah, I wish we I wish I had your course before I got married. But I think this will help young women who are gonna get married or who are engaged, that you know, yeah, to just to sort of take that fear out, right? Because there is that, yeah, like you were saying, the "purity culture" and not knowing what is a healthy view of sex. So this is, um, this is really important. I really appreciate your time again and, um, have a happy Easter.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 55:54

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having the courage and openness to hosting this kind of conversation. And I think you're just gonna bring a great blessing to many women, a horrible beautiful ripple effect that you'll only see in heaven, along with all the other good deeds that you do in your life. So thank you so much.

Sheila Nonato 56:12

Praise God, praise God. And actually, when I told my husband, I told him this is gonna save some people from divorce. And he said, Yeah, yeah, for sure. And then I said, I don't know if I can do it because I don't really talk about these things. And he's like, you know, you should do it, it's very important to do it. So I was like praying about it, and, um, knowing he I have his support really helps a lot because uh, you know, you I'm putting my face out there, and um I don't know how we can do it in public thing, yeah, you know again our relationship.

Dr. Sarah Bartel 56:46

Yeah, yeah, like you know, it'll help other people ....

Sheila Nonato 56:50

Yeah, thanks be to God for your husband too. So you're gonna save a lot of marriages. So

Dr. Sarah Bartel 56:56

thank you.

Sheila Nonato 56:58

Yeah, take care. Okay, too. God bless you. All right, take care. Thank you. God bless. Okay, thank you so much again. Goodbye. Bye.

Sheila Nonato 57:05

OUTRO: Thank you for joining us this week, friends. And in addition to Lenten episodes, since the month of May is coming up in honor of our Blessed Virgin Mary, we will also be featuring stories of faith, women of faith, their conversion, and

Boundaries, Dignity, And Language

Sheila Nonato 57:20

how they are living out the feminine genius. Stay tuned and have a blessed week as we continue with our Lenten observances. And I pray for you and please pray for me that I may be able to keep up with my Lenten resolutions. Thank you again and God bless.

Co-Host 57:39

Happy New Year! Please pray for us. Step on that like button and smash that subscribe button. Please. Thank you! Thank you for listening to the Veil + Armour podcast. I invite you to share this with another Catholic mom today. Please subscribe to our podcast and YouTube channel, and please spread the word. Let's be brave, let's be bold, and let's be blessed together.