42. A Catholic Doctor gets cancelled and fights in court. Did he win?Can an abortion be reversed? Dr. Dermot Kearney explains why he continues to help women despite opposition targeting his Christian, pro-life beliefs

Christian doctor Dermot Kearney shares his harrowing experience of being targeted by abortion providers and medical authorities for offering Abortion Pill Reversal (APR) treatment to women who changed their minds after taking the first abortion pill (mifepristone). His case highlights the intersection of religious discrimination and medical freedom in healthcare.

• Dr. Kearney and colleague Dr. Eileen Riley were investigated by the General Medical Council for providing progesterone treatment to women who regretted taking the abortion pill
• The complaint specifically cited their Catholic faith, claiming Catholics "could not be trusted" to provide appropriate care
• Abortion pill reversal has a 55% success rate when progesterone is administered promptly after taking mifepristone
• At least 62 UK babies have been born following successful abortion pill reversal treatment
• After fighting the case with legal support from Christian Concern, all charges were dropped when the GMC admitted they had no evidence of misconduct
• During COVID, UK abortion practices shifted to "pills by post" with minimal medical supervision and follow-up
• UK abortion providers receive substantial payment per abortion with minimal overhead for mail-delivery abortions
• 98% of UK abortions are performed under mental health grounds despite no evidence that abortion improves mental health
• Women seeking abortions receive no mental health evaluation before being approved for the procedure

Chapters

• 0:00 Catholics "Cannot Be Trusted"
• 0:38 Introduction to Dr. Kearney's Story
• 3:47 APR Success and GMC Investigation
• 8:32 The Legal Battle Begins
• 17:13 How Abortion Pill Reversal Works
• 32:34 UK's Abortion System Problems
• 42:14 Abortion Law and Mental Health Claims
• 49:47 Late-Term Abortion Realities

Transcript

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 0:00

Their main concern was not so much the treatment. They were concerned that there were Catholics providing this service. They said that Catholics could not be trusted. We have the written letter to show this that their concern was that one of them myself at the time was the current president of the Catholic Medical Association. The other is a prominent Catholic pro-life speaker and these people cannot be trusted to provide non-judgmental, appropriate care for these vulnerable women. And this was written in writing. The sad thing is that the GMC (General Medical Council of UK) endorsed this and in the cases against us they actually used that as evidence in the tribunal.

Sheila Nonato: 0:38

Hello and welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast. This is your host, Sheila Nonato. I'm a stay-at-home mom and a freelance Catholic journalist, seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the inspiration of Our Lady, I strive to tell stories that inspire, illuminate and enrich the lives of Catholic women, to help them and living out our vocation of raising the next generation of leaders and Saints please join us every week on the veil and armor podcast, where stories come alive through a journalist's lens in mother's heart.

Sheila Nonato: 1:09

Another beautiful baby girl has been born this morning, the 9th of September, in the north of England, to a beautiful and grateful mother who received help with abortion pill reversal in early pregnancy after regretting she had taken Mifepristone. We now have at least 63 UK abortion pill reversal babies. This is what UK doctor Dermot Kearney had posted on Twitter almost a year ago, not too long after the ban reversal on his provision of potentially life-saving medical care made available for free for women who have taken the abortion pill early on in pregnancy. During the pandemic lockdown, instead of abortion clinics and hospitals, abortion moved indoors. Chemical abortions back then and now, are increasingly carried out without medical supervision in women's homes. How did Dr Kearney get cancelled for his medical practice? Why did they target his Christian faith?

Sheila Nonato: 2:09

Let's hear Dr Kearney speak about the case against him by pro-abortion group MSI Reproductive Choice and the British General Medical Council, which initially barred him from performing Abortion Pill Reversal. A voice of reason in a hostile world always to instruct and educate, never to humiliate, is how Dr Kearney describes his Twitter bio. Let's hear how his concern for patient safety, women's health and providing care for the unborn form part of his desire to work in pro-life and in his medical practice. Thank you and God bless. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, jesus.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 2:59

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. In the name of the Father and of the Son, now and at the hour of our death.

Sheila Nonato: 3:05

Amen, Amen, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Amen, thank you. Thank you, Dr. Kearney, for joining us. Perhaps Canadians may be hearing will soon be hearing a familiar case as Canada's own Dr. Jordan Peterson has been having his own battles with free speech, having been threatened with having his license taken away by the College of Psychologists in Ontario, and in your case, the right to practice medicine and deliver life-saving care was on the line. Can you tell us, can you give us an update on what happened and what is the update on that case?

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 3:47

Sure. Well, as you probably know that I and one other doctor in the United Kingdom were helping women who had taken the first abortion pill, Mifepristone, but who then changed their mind and wanted to try to save their babies and they in desperation. They they looked to see was there anybody that could help them? And they came through a variety of channels and myself and the other doctor, dr riley and riley we were registered with an international helpline with Abortion Pill Reversal network based in ohio in the U. S. and um most of the calls to us came through there, where the girls would find a helpline on the internet, phone or email the helpline and then they would say, oh yes, we have a doctor in in the uk who might be able to help you, and then they would put us well, either myself or Dr. (Eileen) Riley in contact with the with the girl looking for for support. And you know there is an international helpline. So they would have a network of doctors all over the, all over the world, mostly in United States and some in Canada, who provide this support for women who come looking for this help. And then we would discuss with them the possible success rates, because it's not always successful, but if we give natural progesterone to these mothers before miscarriage has occurred, so before they experience heavy bleeding, severe cramps, there's a reasonable chance that the baby might survive. And I would inform the mothers exactly what the success rates would be in our experience and in the international experience. So I would always tell them that if, if she, if she took the two abortion pills, as the abortion providers would advise her to do or recommend her to, if she took both abortion pills, there would be a less than 2% chance her baby would survive and there would be no point just giving progesterone at that stage.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 5:33

If she took the first abortion pill, Mifepristone, but didn't take the second abortion pill, as she might have been instructed to do that's called Misoprostol but if she didn't receive progesterone so she didn't get the life-saving help that we could offer, there would be a less than 20% chance her baby would survive. But that would depend on the age of gestation. So if it was over 10 weeks there would be a slightly better chance than if it was just six or seven weeks, but overall a less than 20% chance that her baby would survive. So an 80% certainty of death that her baby would die. If, an 80% certainty of death that our baby would die.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 6:04

If, however, she took the first abortion pill, didn't take the second pill and managed to promptly get progesterone that we were offering and prepared to prescribe for her, and if she got it within before she experienced severe cramps, severe bleeding, heavy bleeding, there was a greater than 50% chance a baby would survive. So in our experience it's 55%. In the United States it's slightly better, they're up to 65%. That's largely due to a greater awareness, so a more speedy provision of the service, but also in many cases in the United States they have the luxury of doing an ultrasound scan before they give the treatment, so they can check to see if the baby is still alive and viable, whereas we didn't have that, so some of the babies were probably already dead by the time we could start treatment. But still our success rate is over 50 percent, so 55 percent. So that's quite remarkable.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 6:53

There are very, very few interventions in medicine, in any branch of medicine, where you can reduce a certain mortality rate of 80 percent plus more than 80 percent to less than 50 percent. Percent plus more than 80 percent to less than 50 percent, that's a a relative mortality, a certain mortality risk reduction of more than 30 percent and there are very, very few interventions in medicine that that's actually that's nobel prize sort of stuff. Because we get very excited and, for example, I'm a cardiologist we get very excited if a new treatment comes along that reduces mortality or is seen to or believed to reduce mortality by 10 percent or 15 percent, so to actually reduce mortality, certain mortality, by more than 30 percent and so you're more than doubling the chance of the baby surviving. And is remarkable now are it's disappointing that we don't have 100 success rate but and many of the girls come to us but still. For example, I had a call earlier this week with a girl. Before she could get the progesterone she already had heavy hemorrhage and bleeding and her call didn't come through until almost 72 hours. But the sooner this treatment can be given the better.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 7:56

So myself and Dr. Riley were providing this service. We had started in 2020. She did her first cases in late May 2020. I did my first provision of abortion reversal in late June 2020. And we had the first year between the two of us. We had 32 babies' lives were saved.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 8:17

Myself I was involved in 20 of those and not all of them had been born by that, because obviously it takes nine months for a pregnancy to progress 40 weeks but unknown to us, an investigation was taking place from as early as January 2021, where some people in the abortion industry were upset at this service that we were providing to women and keep in mind, it was the women who were coming to us. We weren't putting any pressure on them, but they fabricated some false allegations against myself and Dr. Riley. They tried to make it seem that we were forcing our pro-life, our Catholic beliefs on these vulnerable women, that we were misleading them, we were giving them illegal and unlicensed medication and that we were harming these women in some way. So these allegations were put forward to the General Medical Council by mainly by two groups by the royal college of obstetricians and who formulated the case against both myself and dr riley, and also mary stopes international and call themselves msi reproductive choices and the one of the main abortion providers. So their medical director took a particular interest in me and he um, he wrote to the gmc, uh made up allegations against me without any evidence whatsoever and I don't think he was involved in dr riley's case. Hers was mainly through the royal college of obstetrician. Their main concern was not so much the treatment. They were concerned that there were catholics providing this service. They said that Catholics could not be trusted. We have the written letter to show this that their concern was that one of them myself at the time was the current president of the Catholic Medical Association. The other is a prominent Catholic pro-life speaker and these people cannot be trusted to provide nonjudgmental, appropriate care for these vulnerable women. And this was written in writing. The sad thing is that the GMC endorsed this and, in the cases against us, that they actually use that as evidence in the in the tribunal.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 10:13

So on the, as I said, the investigation had been unknown to us from january 2021. We were both made aware of it almost simultaneously. We both received emails from the General Medical Council, you know, within minutes of each other, on the same day, on the 28th of April 2021. So several months later to say that serious allegations of possible professional misconduct had been made against us because of this service that we were offering to women and that we were ordered to attend a tribunal to women and that we were ordered to attend a tribunal. They couldn't order us to stop immediately. It had to go through a court type procedure, the medical practitioners tribunal service, which is linked to the GMC, although allegedly independent of the GMC. So both of us had a hearing date less than two weeks later, on the 12th of May.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 11:03

We had to inform Some of the pro-life organizations because, what I mentioned, most of the referrals coming to us were through the international helpline. Some of the referrals were coming through some of the UK based pro-life organizations, such as the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children, Good Counsel Network, Christian Concern. So we had to inform these groups that unfortunately we would not be in a position to provide the service anymore. So if any young mothers did contact them looking to help them, unfortunately we would not be allowed to do it at that moment in time. When Christian Concern heard this, this was on a Wednesday and by Friday morning their chief executive, andrea Williams, had arranged a meeting, a Zoom meeting, with myself, dr Riley and herself and two of her leading legal people in the Christian Legal Centre, which is affiliated to Christian Concern, and they decided that we were going to fight this Because myself and Dr Riley thought well, there's nothing you can do with the General Medical Council, we've no power against them.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 12:04

It's a real David and Goliath situation, Andrea Williams, I remember very well on that morning and Goliath situation. Andrea Williams, I remember very well on that morning she pointed her finger at the camera and she said no, we will not accept this. This is unjust. We will fight this and we will win this. And so I went to a Christian concern. They defended me very, very, very, very well, very, very appropriately. They put forward very strong cases.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 12:29

Dr Riley decided, on advice that she obtained from a colleague, that she should try and not go with one of the faith-based organizations which should go to a secular sort of defense association. So she went to one of the local defense. Their attitude was totally different. Their attitude was we know you're guilty, keep your head down, try not to make this any worse, don't challenge it and we'll try and aim for damage limitation and try and get the best deal we can out of this.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 12:54

Nevertheless, both of us had to go to um, this tribunal, on the 12th of may. I went first in the morning time, she went in the afternoon and the GMC's barrister put forward. All the allegations were. In my there were 10 specific allegations relating to using what they called illegal, unethical, unlicensed medication, forcing my pro-life beliefs, forcing my Catholic beliefs on these vulnerable women, not obtaining proper consent. And the one thing that did get right was that I did help in some cases, for some of the women weren't weren't able to afford the treatment the treatment is not expensive, but £20, but some of them weren't able to pay the pharmacy costs. So I offered in some cases to help. So they claimed that I was bribing the women to do what I was actually doing.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 13:46

In fact we were able to show that I was paying the pharmacy, not the mothers themselves. And the other thing that they did get right is that I wasn't following the recommended guidelines on abortion provision because I wasn't providing abortion. So they got that one right, but all the other allegations were just fabricated with absolutely no evidence to support them, and so the outcome of that? We put forward our case. We actually had quite a strong case because we had managed to get, within a matter of days, an expert witness who had no conflict of interest. He's a well-recognized practicing obstetrician in the UK. He's a fellow of the Royal College of Obstetricians, so the group that took us to task. He performs abortions, he's not Catholic, he's not Christian, and yet he looked at the evidence, or the lack of evidence, and said this is ridiculous, you have a very strong case. And he answered all of the allegations in his own in a way, as I did. I gave responses to all the allegations but nevertheless that the outcome of that trial, that tribunal was for both myself and Dr Riley, who came on a few hours later, was that in my case, that I must not prescribe, administer or recommend progesterone for abortion universal. And they also added in some extra conditions attached to my practice that I wasn't allowed to do any private work which I don't do anyway apart from this't allowed to do any private work which I don't do anyway apart from this, which is unpaid private work, and I wasn't allowed to do any voluntary works. I wasn't allowed to provide any voluntary services to anybody. At that time I used to go on pilgrimage as a volunteer medical volunteer to lourdes with helping sick people and invalided people in lourdes, so I wouldn't be allowed to do that anymore unless I had written express permission from the General Medical Council. It's worth noting also that the GMC in their statements they wanted, they demanded the maximum penalty for both myself and Dr Riley. They wanted us suspended completely from medical practice for 18 months and that was the maximum penalty that could be imposed, and so we wouldn't be able to earn a livelihood, be able to do any work as doctors.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 15:55

Fortunately, the tribunal thought that was disproportionate and also this was in the time of Covid, at a time when they were trying to persuade doctors to come out of retirement, come back from the dead and start providing services, because there was such a shortage of doctors able and willing to care for people at that pandemic crisis time. So the tribunal thought that would be disproportionate. So they allowed me to continue doing my normal general medical, internal medical cardiology work. But I wasn't allowed to do these. So some conditions were attached, mainly relating to the continuing provision of progesterone treatment for women who wanted. So we were banned for 18 months. That was the maximum that could be imposed, but that had to be reviewed every six months and the usual practice in those situations is that they will go through the motions of reviewing the case every six months and nothing new will be allowed to be put forward and they will just renew it every six months. Then, when it gets to 18 months, they will continue to find some reason to maintain it. So this could have gone on and on and on in perpetuity.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 16:55

So my legal team, after we appealed it and we got some statements from several of the women, we could have got 40 statements of that, all of what are supportive, but we got 10 different ones. So we've got 10 different mothers who are willing to, are very willing to give us supportive statements. I wasn't allowed of any role in it. It was all done through the legal people, so my only role was I had to ask the mothers would they mind if a lawyer contacted them and if I gave them the contact details? And in all cases they said yes, that'd be no problem. So I wasn't allowed to know what questions were going to be asked.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 17:29

So the legal team interviewed 10 of the ladies and some of them had had their babies already, having gone through the abortion pill reversal process successfully. Some of them had tried the treatment but it hadn't worked and they'd lost their babies. But they were still very grateful that somebody had helped them and they were willing to to provide witness statements in support of what we were doing. Some of them two of them were mothers who had discussed it with me but for various reasons had decided not to go ahead with the treatment, usually because of some sort of coercion that they would like to about their boyfriend or their husband, or someone was going to throw them out or leave them if they didn't have the abortion. But some of them were very willing to go ahead. So we've got 10 different witness statements, totally different stories. All of them have been very supportive and so we presented this to the general medical council and to the tribunal and later, after the initial one.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 18:21

So this was a part of our appeal and we got a word in August so three months ahead of schedule that yes, new information had come to light and they were going to have an early review, and we thought this is great. They're obviously taking into account the witness statements that have come forward, proving that there was no substance to the allegations that had been made, particularly in relation to pressure being put on mothers or forcing our beliefs on these vulnerable women. And, to our astonishment, at the very outset, even before the tribunal was went underway, the chairperson said of course, while new evidence has come to light, we will not be looking at any evidence, we will purely be looking at the allegations. And at that stage, while again this was on zoom, my lawyer just threw his hands up in the air and made an exasperated statement that this was a ridiculous kangaroo court. And we went through the motions of, but we knew what the outcome was going to be. So they just and said that the continued conditions imposed must remain in place, that that I was still a danger to the general public if I was allowed to continue their practice of oroviding the service to women.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 19:29

So that stage my legal team decided we're going to have to go further than this. So we took a case to the High Court to take it out of the hands of the GMC and the Medical Tribunal. So we went to the Civil High Court in London and we put forward our application at the end of September, start of October 2021. Now I thought there would be a long backlog because we're still trying to get through cases that have been delayed because of COVID. So I was expecting it would be at least 12 months before anything is heard. But surprisingly, we heard very quickly that we were granted a hearing at the end of February 2022. So just a few months later.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 20:05

By that stage the General Medical Council admitted and we got a number of emails from them to say that they were having difficulty finding an expert witness of their own to support the allegations and to look at the evidence or the lack of evidence, which was interesting because we got one within two days or three days and we had a report within a week and they, several months later, still didn't have one. Eventually they got one in late December 2021. Later, still didn't have one. Eventually they got one in late December 2021. He or she I won't mention what gender, but again, he or she was a prominent member of the Royal College of Obstetricians and a fellow of the Royal College. His or her report was very similar to the report given by our expert witness.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 20:49

It tore apart the allegations saying that there was little or no evidence right and the only concern that this expert witness had was that on the question of the payment for the, for the treatment, and also I had also volunteered in some cases to arrange if the, if the mothers couldn't get ultrasound examinations, which they need to get to see if the treatment is is working or the child is viable, especially if they have any bleeding. So he or she was a little bit concerned that money was being provided to either obtain the treatment or the ultrasound if they couldn't get one through their own NHS. And at the time of COVID it was very difficult in some cases to get ultrasound scans done promptly because of the concerns over spreading the virus. But again we were able to show that we weren't paying the woman. We were putting down a deposit to the private ultrasound people and we had no control over that. It was just a local service. Wherever the woman wanted to go and she chose and we or I was happy to provide a down payment for that, to make sure that the scan went ahead, and, similarly, we were paying the pharmacist rather than just whatever the cost of the treatment was. So there was no extra treatment or bribery being involved.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 22:00

And once that was pointed out and the expert witness from the GMC was satisfied that there was nothing he or she could say that what we were doing was could be considered professional misconduct. So then, so we were due to have our hearing, I think on the 24th of february, and just a few days eight, on the 18th, or a few days about six days before that, um, because we were getting ready for we all all our sort of our statements, everything ready for our court appearance, our day in court. And then, six days beforehand, I got a phone call from my legal team to say had I heard the good news that the case had been dropped against myself, not against Dr Riley, you know she had. She hadn't challenged this, so she was still working with the other group, so the conditions imposed upon her still still remained in place, but the conditions against me were going to be dropped. And about half an hour later I received an email from the GMC confirming that and also the final report of their case investigators, and the bottom line was that there was no prospect of finding any evidence to support any of the allegations that had been made, claiming there was professional misconduct, which is interesting. And because Dr Riley didn't receive, her case wasn't dropped until two months later because there was no threat of a high court appearance.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 23:23

So if we had gone to court, as had been planned at the end of February, the judge, they would have put forward the allegations against me and then, the natural thing, the judge would say, ok, can you provide some evidence to support your allegations? And all of they would. The only thing they would have been able to say was well, we don't actually have any evidence, your Honour, but we don't like what he's doing, it's wrong. So they wouldn't have had any justification or evidence to support and you can't go to the High Court with no evidence. And the case investigators they realised that. So there was no option but to drop the case. Otherwise they would have looked just fools or very foolish, plus all the whatever costs of court would have almost certainly gone against them as well in that sort of situation. So they had to drop the case.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 24:10

So since then so since March 2022, that I've been allowed to resume the practice of providing abortion pill reversal to women who seek it. Dr Riley was allowed to continue a couple of months ago. She hasn't actually resumed, but there is one or two other doctors in the country who have taken the flag up and are providing the service, in addition to myself. So still a small number of us providing the service. But it's important that mothers in the UK who've taken Bifepristone in early pregnancy that they realize, if they change their mind, that there is definite help out there that can try to help them save their babies. And so far we've mentioned we had 32 in the first year.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 24:52

So far we've at least 62 that I'm aware of. There may be one or two others that the other doctors have helped. We have 62 births. There's another girl who's due to have her baby this Saturday. If she hasn't delivered a baby, they're going to induce her on Saturday. And there's another few that are well past the danger point. So they're well on their way in pregnancy, having got over the danger period, which is the first two or three weeks after they've taken mifepristone. So that's where we stand. So at the moment, the update is that we're back in business and we're still actually careful. We still have to make sure that we do everything by the book, that the service we provided is purely voluntary to the girls coming to us, that there's no pressure whatsoever, there's no judgment. If they they they want to try and save the baby, we are in a position to try to help them to do that so there's a picture of you with, I believe it's, two or three babies.

Sheila Nonato: 25:48

Those are some of the babies, the 32 babies that have been saved.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 25:54

They were. That was, um, that was. That was the day that we were meant to go to court. So I did go to london that day because the High Court's in London and I went to London that day, but it was for a much more happy occasion. So Christian Concern had arranged for one of the national newspapers, The Daily Mail, to do an exclusive article on the issue and the charges being dropped and so on. So we invited some of the mothers and fathers actually, up until that point I'd never really considered the fathers until then and so three of the mothers and fathers with their three little children there's meant to be two others, but at the last minute they had to weren't able to come. So there was a picture with me with three of the babies and that the mothers and fathers were very happy to do it. So they were. As the picture was being taken, the mothers and fathers were standing sort of two yards away and very proud of their little children. And it was, it was, it was a lovely occasion.

Sheila Nonato: 26:43

It's very joyful occasion and 32 out of how many? How many cases?

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 26:50

um, So it's difficult to exactly because some of them um, as I said, we're about a 55 rate, so they're the ones that we know continue treatment. So, for example, at the moment I have taken calls in 141 cases. So I have responded to 141 requests and not all of those are genuine. There was almost certainly at least three or four were from journalists or people who wanted to try and just find out information and then never went out. They made up stories almost certainly, and certainly in one case you could hear a recording device in the background recording the conversations. But I didn't mind that. I'm happy to talk to journalists because I tell them exactly. I treat them exactly the same way as I would treat a mother who was genuinely seeking help. I tell them exactly the same information. I tell them exactly what we're going to do. I arrange their prescription for them through a local pharmacy of their choice and I tell them all the success rate, the failure rate, the side effects of the drugs, the fact that they unfortunately the drugs have to be paid for because it's not a normal NHS. So I tell them all of the truth. So we're very upfront about it. So, 141 cases and a third of those about 35%, so slightly more than a third don't go ahead with treatment. So for various reasons, in many cases it's because I would love to, but my boyfriend says he'll commit suicide, or my boyfriend says he'll leave me, or my husband says we can't afford it or my parents will be upset. There's lots of reasons why women get, but they but they're very grateful that someone at least has explained that option to them.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 28:25

And then, of those who do take the treatment, some of them take it for one or two days and then decide to stop, and some of them seem to be going okay and then they disappear. They don't. They stop responding to whatsapp messages because I can't. I tell them, I tell them all that they can contact me at any time, day or night, if they have any worries, any questions, any concerns. And some of them do, but most of them don't. Most of them will give me an update every so often, but for the first few days I check in with them every day to make sure they're okay, just by WhatsApp or by text or by telephone call, whatever. It's entirely up to them, whatever way they want to communicate, and if they don't respond, I don't force it. So some of them, after one or two days, or sometimes after a few weeks, just stopped responding. Now I don't know if they decided to go ahead with the abortion, which they may have done in some cases. I don't know if they have. Maybe they've had their baby, maybe everything went fine and they just wanted to forget about this. This was a sort of a dark hour in their life and they want to not be reminded of it, so they don't want to continue the contact with me. That's a possibility. So maybe some children out there that have been born successfully with the treatment that I don't know about or they may have it may have failed, they may have had a miscarriage, but they may have been too embarrassed to tell me.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 29:37

What we do know is if they get beyond 15 days because most of them who do, when the treatment fails, it fails within the first week. The danger period is sort of three, four, five days. So I always tell the guards if you can get to five days without any, this is after they've taken. If you get to five days without serious bleeding, severe hemorrhage, we're doing well, okay, but let's try and get to a week. Then I get to a week and say this is really good. So there's a you're well over 50 chance of surviving now. But now I'd like to get you to 10 days and then I'd like to get them to get to two weeks. So we continue treatment until 12 weeks, until they're at least 12 weeks pregnant, because by that stage, at 12 weeks, the placenta is producing large amounts of natural progesterone, so we shouldn't need to continue the treatment. So the duration of treatment will depend on what gestational age the mother contacts is at.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 30:33

So the earliest success I've had has been five weeks and two days, and so she had to continue treatment for about seven weeks, six or seven weeks. And then we've had others who've been over over 10 weeks, over 12 weeks, and so some of those, because in the uk they can give the abortion pills up to up to 24 weeks. Actually now it's not recommended to give it that late, but they can. Strictly speaking. Some of them have had it at 13, 14, 15 weeks. In those cases I just give two weeks of treatment and if everything is okay by two weeks, they're going to be fine, and that has been the case in all of the cases. There was only one exception to that, where a mother got to 18 weeks you're doing fine. She had started treatment, I think around 11 or 12 weeks, so she'd had a few weeks of treatment and was doing fine. 18 weeks were doing great. Had had a couple of scans which were fine, but then her husband forced her to go ahead with the abortion, which was tragic and she, she was doing great.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 31:24

So we've had a few cases like that where they were doing very well and then, tragically, something persuaded them, somebody persuaded them to uh, to have to go ahead with the course. In one case a boyfriend stole her, stole the girl's progesterone. She was very upset and he surreptitiously gave her bisoprostol, the second abortion, without. I don't know whether he put it into a drink or into food or something, but she, um, she ended up taking mr prostle, unwillingly. Now I told her to report that to the police, but I'm not sure whether that has taken place and she I did make put her in touch with a very good psychologist who was because of the psychological impact that this was obviously having upon her, but I felt that this was a, you know, a criminal offense that that certainly she should consider going to the police about. But I don't know whether, whether she did, I didn't. I wouldn't ask her those sort of private questions.

Sheila Nonato: 32:21

Actually I wanted to go back to, you mentioned the Daily Mail. I wanted to read part of their article. This is during the pandemic, Since GP surgeries and clinics closed in lockdown, women have been able to carry out terminations, abortions, at home by swallowing two powerful pills over 48 hours. So can you explain to us, just so we understand clearly? What is the APR treatment? The

Sheila Nonato: 32:49

progesterone treatment.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 32:49

Okay, so the majority of abortions nowadays are carried out by chemical means, by drugs, and the two drugs used are mifepristone, which is a specific progesterone receptor antagonist. That means it blocks the action of natural progesterone. Progesterone is essential. It's a hormone produced in the female body well, some in the male body, but in the female body it's essential for maintaining pregnancy. It's called progesterone because it's progestational steroid hormone. That's the full title progestational steroid. So it's shortened to progesterone. Because it's progestational steroid hormone. That's the full title progestational steroid. So it's shortened to progesterone. So it's essential to maintain pregnancy. So mifepristone blocks the action of progesterone by binding to receptors. Progesterone is a hormone, it's a steroid hormone and all steroid hormones have their effect by the chemical. Steroid hormones have their effect by the chemical molecules interact with receptors in the uterus and in the ovary and in the reproductive tract. But if another, so. For example, one of the common causes of miscarriage is low levels of progesterone. So some women don't produce enough progesterone in pregnancy to maintain the pregnancy and they lose the baby early in pregnancy. That's one of the treatments and one of the recommended treatments for the recurrent miscarriage is progesterone treatment, because we know that in a certain percentage of cases that treatment will be successful to make up for the natural lack of natural progesterone that the body is not producing. So this is an artificial way of inducing miscarriage by giving this mifepristone, which blocks. So it has the same effect as if you had a low level or a very low level or low level of progesterone, so it blocks the action of progesterone. So the theory is that if we can give progesterone in higher doses, it can, just as the mifepristone can block the progesterone by getting in to these receptors first. If we can give higher levels of progesterone, it will compete with the mifepristone and will at least in some cases be able to get in and prevent the ongoing effect of the mifepristone. If mifepristone is already causing miscarriage, it's too late. So we've got to get in there quickly. But there is a window up to 72 hours. That's the only good thing you can say about chemically induced abortion. There is a window of opportunity that if the mother changes her mind, even though she's taken the first abortion pill, there still is a possibility a baby might survive, whereas in a surgical abortion, once that instrument is passed in there, there's no going back. So the baby's not going to survive.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 35:17

The second drug drug then. So they take the mifepristone to basically kill the baby. So it blocks off the progesterone supply. It blocks off the development of the um, the natural developing placenta or trophoblast, the interface that connects the baby to the to the mother. So they chance the lining of the womb, basically the endometrial lining. It sheds that and causes the pro abortion people to say, oh, it's just the same as having a heavy period. It is, it's like having a heavy period. It's usually a much heavier period because you're already several weeks pregnant so you're going to have a much thicker lining than you would have with a normal period. But it is causing the same effect. It's causing shedding of the lining of the womb which has been developing in preparation for pregnancy and maintaining the baby there and and if that's shared then the baby can survive.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 36:02

So in most cases the bifurcistone will actually kill the baby, not in all. Sometimes the baby will actually still be alive, despite miscarriage sort of being well underway. So the second pill, misoprostol, is a powerful prostatlandin analog and that causes contraction of the muscle of the womb, the biometrium, and causes the uterus to expel the baby and any other products of conception that might be present there, part of the placenta or the developing trophoblast. So the first one kills the baby by depriving it of its blood supply and its uterine supply. The second expels the baby from the uterus. It's successful. It kills the baby 98 to 99 times out of 100. That combination doesn't always completely empty the uterus, mind you. Some about seven percent of cases.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 36:49

The mother will then have an incomplete abortion and will have to go and have a follow-up surgical procedure to complete the abortion. That some of the baby, part of the baby, might be left behind, or some of the membranes or some of the placenta might still be there. So there is a complication right and if left untreated it can cause serious hemorrhage, it causes severe pain, it can cause serious sepsis and women have died. Women have died from incomplete abortions due to the abortion pills.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 37:18

There's a number of downsides with the abortion pills, especially when they're done, as the majority are done in the UK, by post, where the mother makes a telephone call, never sees a doctor, never sees a healthcare professional, has a discussion over the phone with a nurse sometimes a doctor, but usually not somebody working for the abortion industry who will tick a series of boxes to say why do you want the abortion? What stage of pregnancy are you at? Are you making this decision by yourself? So there's a few little safeguarding questions that they have to ask, but they have absolutely no way of ascertaining the veracity or the truth of these responses. There has been an investigation into this, what they call a mystery client investigation, where one of the pro-life groups, actually run by a person who used to work with Mary Stokes, so he knows how these people operate, knows their mindset and he set up a mystery client where 28 different women, different scenarios, posed as clients seeking abortion and they told stories and they gave a number of fictitious things about themselves. And all of these consultations were video recorded and sound recorded. So we've got the information. And in one of them there was a man sitting beside the woman telling her what to say, so basically cursing her into the action, and the person on the other end of the phone had absolutely no way of knowing that there was a man telling this woman what to do. And another one. There was another where a man was sitting across a woman and did a, made a sign that her throat would be cut if she didn't, and again this was clearly visible on video but obviously the.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 38:56

The abortion provider had no idea that this was a coercion abortion, so they have no way of knowing how genuine. They don't even know if the woman's pregnant. It could be anybody anyone with a female voice could request it. They don't know if she'd been pressurized and they don't follow up. We know they don't follow up because the girls that we help, they never get any follow-up. The only time there might be follow-up is would be if the woman goes back and complains about something to the abortion provider. Then they might know that oh yeah, something is amiss. That's why they will quote figures like that say oh this, the complication rate for chemical abortions is 0.004 percent. That's because that's all they, that's all they know. They don't follow up with these things.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 39:38

If they actually cared to follow up on all of their clients, they would find the the serious complication rate is at least seven percent. At least seven percent. So that means at least seven percent of women who take the abortion pills will end up at their er or their accident, emergency or emergency department with serious complications. So heavy bleeding requiring transfusion, a serious infection requiring intravenous antibiotics and admission to hospital, serious or incomplete abortion requiring admission to hospital and subsequent surgical interventions, plus possible bleeding and sepsis, in addition to incomplete abortion. So there is a serious complication rate of at least 7% in these, and they're the ones we know of. There may be others that women who present with sepsis what they say is a natural miscarriage, but it's actually an induced miscarriage with abortion girls who have similar complications. So it may well be 10 percent or even more. We know that it's a high, serious complication rate.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 40:40

The other important thing that people need to be aware of is that there is a danger of ectopic pregnancy being missed, because most of these women do not get an ultrasound scan missed, because most of these women do not get an ultrasound scan. One of the important aspects of early pregnancy care is that an ultrasound scan can be performed for a number of reasons Number one, to ensure that there is a pregnancy. Number two, to ensure that it's intrauterine, that it's within the uterus and not ectopic. And number three, to establish the exact gestational age Because, again, once the by the telephone consultations, there have been cases in the uk where babies have been born alive or dead, we don't know as a result of abortion pills at 32 weeks, 36 weeks, where the mothers maybe maybe didn't know they were that far pregnant, but that's unlikely.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 41:26

But there have been several documented cases of late third trimester abortions which are illegal and against the law and the abortion provider should not be providing these dangerous drugs to women in these situations. They're meant to only by the. One of the rulings, by the pills by post, by the telephone consultations, is that they can only provide the abortion pills if they, if the abortion is less than nine weeks and six days or less, so less than 10 weeks. But we know from even from some of the girls that I've helped, that they're well over 10 weeks by the time they get the abortion pills, although the majority are still under 10 weeks. So the omifipristone blocks progesterone and by giving progesterone we can help in many cases to overcome or prevent the ongoing effect of omifibristone and prevent miscarriage from happening.

Sheila Nonato: 42:24

How easy is it in the UK for somebody to ask for these two pills for abortion at home and then after that, what's the follow-up? Do they have to go to their doctor after? Do they get checked by their doctor? What's sort of the process?

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 42:44

It's incredibly easy, as I say. You just need to know the number of an abortion provider usually either BPAS, which is the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, or MSI or Newpass, the three main ones, or even one of the NHS helplines, and you will say that I'm pregnant and I'm in a terrible state and I don't want to keep my baby. The abortion is still, technically and strictly speaking, is illegal in the United Kingdom, so it is still under the law of the Offenses Against the Person Act in 1861. So it's illegal to procure an abortion. However, the Abortion Act of 1967 said that abortions could be carried out. Induced abortions could be carried out. Induced abortions could be carried out under certain terms. So if the following terms are met and there had to be the first one was that two doctors had to agree that an abortion was justified on the grounds of either A, b, c, d, e. So there's six or seven grounds where abortion may be carried out, things like severe disability of the child or severe threat to the life of the mother. However, 98% of all abortions are carried out under grounds C, which states that continuing the pregnancy poses a greater risk to the life or health of the mother, including the mental health of the mother than undergoing a termination. So continuing the pregnancy poses a greater risk to the health or health or life of the mother. Um, and that that's up to 24 weeks. So abortion is illegal up to 24 weeks. After 28 weeks there are exceptional circumstances. After 24 weeks there are exceptional circumstances where it may be still carried out, but 24 for basically for any reason.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 44:27

Um, now the, the people who get paid for these because it's all done, or 98% is done, through the National Health Service. So the abortion providers get a very healthy tariff or payment for these. So at least it's a minimum. A few years ago it was a minimum of £500 for a simple first trimester chemically induced abortion, and for surgical abortion it would be much more. So they get a minimum of five or six hundred pound per abortion. So it's in their interest to do as many as they can, um, and without any follow-up. So since the pills by posters come in, then their overheads have gone down, so they have very little payments said to give a send out. Two pills in the post cost them probably about a pound and they get, you know, very large, handsome um profit margins, uh, for what they do.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 45:15

And then there's certainly an element of fraud, because they've claimed whenever they they send out the forms they fit. They have to fill out a form that has to then get sent to the department of health to prove that they've, that they've done what they were claiming to, that they've prescribed an abortion, carried out an abortion, but yet they don't follow up on those. They don't know if the, if the woman actually takes the pills. They don't know if the pills are actually going to that woman or is it somebody else that they're going to. They don't know if she just put them in a drawer, she saved them up for maybe another occasion. And at least in 65 cases where presumably the abortion abortion, or 62 cases where babies have been born with another few on the way because of abortion pill reversal, they are presumed the abortion industry claimed money for those six years. That's at least 62 cases of fraud where they've got paid for something that they're not entitled to get paid for at the expense of the taxpayer. So it's very, very easy.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 46:08

All you have to do is make the phone call, say that you're pregnant. You don't want to be. They'll ask you when was your last period or do you know what stage of pregnancy you're at and you can say anything you like. You can say, oh yes, my last period was 20th of January or the 15th of March or whatever, and they'll write that down and say oh yeah, so You're eight weeks pregnant or you're seven weeks pregnant. Oh yeah, you're under 10 weeks. Are you making this decision voluntarily? Oh yes, I am. Yeah. And why do you think you need the abortion? Will it affect you? Well, one of the girls I know she was actually asked. So a leading question will it affect your mental health? Oh, yes, it will. Okay, that ticks the box. So 98% are performed on ground C and of those 98%, 99.9% so almost all of them are done on the grounds it will harm the mental health of the mother as opposed to the physical health mental health. More than so, continuing the pregnancy will harm the mental health more than undergoing a termination of that stage of pregnancy. So 98-99% of all abortions are done under the pretense that it will harm the mental health.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 47:16

Now there's absolutely no evidence anywhere in the world from any source that having an abortion helps the mental health of mothers. We know that in many cases there is a sense of relief, but that is not the mental health we know from many studies that have been not the mental health, and we know from many studies that have been done that mental health is actually adversely affected by abortion as opposed to continuing pregnancy, even in crisis pregnancy, even in unplanned and unwanted or initially unwanted pregnancies. We know that there's increased risk of depression, substance abuse, suicide rates in women who undergo abortion and there's good evidence for that. Nowhere, in no place, is there evidence that mental health has improved, either short term or long term. There is just a sense of relief, but that is not mental health as properly measured. The other important point is that none of these maybe with very, maybe with very, very few exceptions, but the vast majority and I would say at least 99 percent do not undergo any mental health evaluation. They do not see, uh, have psychiatry, psychologists reports. Psychiatry reports say that this patient will suffer mental health problems if she doesn't undergo this abortion. So none of them get any mental health evaluation. So these decisions have been made by people who have absolutely no training in mental health and yet they're making these decisions.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 48:43

And one of the accusations against me is that I was a cardiologist, primarily cardiologist, although I do general medicine, including prescribing steroid hormones for lots of other conditions. But one of the accusations that a cardiologist should not be involved in obstetric care, it's not obstetric care. If anything, it's endocrine care. It's a hormonal treatment. It's endocrinology more than obstetrics, if you want to be very pedantic about it. But there's no reason and that the expert witness in both, in both cases said there was absolutely no reason why dr carney or dr riley especially because he's an obstetrician they should not be involved in providing the service to women that he he has demonstrated. He has the necessary skills and competence and understanding of the physiology and the pharmacology to provide the service.

Sheila Nonato: 49:38

Just for comparison, in Canada our abortion law is in limbo. Potentially, you could do an abortion up to nine months because of this legal limbo. What is the situation in the UK?

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 49:47

Yeah, if a woman really wanted an abortion up to nine months, she could. Now there would be. She might have difficulty finding a provider who would be prepared to do it, because even the staunch pro kill the baby. So that usually involves injecting a substance directly into the baby through the mother's abdomen under ultrasound guidance. Ideally they try to aim to get it into the heart. So they inject usually potassium chloride or digepsin, so one of those substances. That other agents can be used in other places, but they're the two common ones.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 50:29

You have to kill the baby now. We know that that's painful, and so I've been told by people working in veterinary practice that you're not allowed to do that to animals because it's too painful If you're putting them to sleep. You have to use more humane or more gentle methods of killing. So the whole idea of feticide is distasteful to a lot of abortions. But if you know, if a woman is really determined to have an abortion, that and it's usually for on the grounds of some sort of eugenic reason, so down syndrome, edward syndrome, clubfoot, some congenital abnormality that they that may have been discovered later in pregnancy, that had been had been missed earlier or the mother had decided well, maybe I can cope with this, but then decided at a later stage, or was persuaded at a later stage, that she wouldn't be able to cope with this. So, yeah, so they can find reasons to to end a baby's life.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 51:17

And there have been again many cases of mothers almost always with Down syndrome. Actually, where they've been, the mothers have been pressurized right up to right up to the day of delivery, to their birth. You know, it's not too, it's not too late, you can change your mind. You can change your mind right up until the baby's delivered. You know, if you feel you're not able to cope with this, if you want to end it, they would never say if you want to kill your baby, they will say if you want to end the pregnancy now, you don't have to.

Dr. Dermot Kearney: 51:43

So there have been many cases One woman, a Scottish lady, who she recorded 15 times, where she was pressurized between 24 and 39 weeks to have abortion and she had specifically had someone write on the cover of her medical notes do not, please do not, discuss option of abortion or this. This mother is not prepared to consider abortion. So this was actually written. But despite that, they, the health care professionals, in their wisdom decided to keep pressuring her that this might be a good idea, to kill the child now, before he or she was going to be born. And that's an extreme example, but they do happen.

Sheila Nonato: 52:24

So are you telling me that after eight months, abortions have happened in the UK?

Sheila Nonato: 52:30

Thank you for listening to the Veil and Armour podcast.