30. Freedom from Perfectionism through Gospel Perfection and Lessons from the Saints with Colleen Carroll Campbell: A Journey from the White House to Spiritual Awakening

The Heart of Gospel Perfection and escaping worldly perfectionism with best-selling author Colleen Carroll Campbell

Part 2 of the interview with Colleen Carroll Campbell

From the chaos of high-stakes politics to the serene wisdom of saints, Colleen Carroll Campbell's journey unfolds with compelling revelations. As a former White House speechwriter, Colleen discusses the unique challenges and spiritual awakenings she encountered working as a journalist and a presidential speechwriter, and as a homeschooling mother and as a Christian writer.

Together, we uncover how figures like St. Francis of Assisi and St. Therese of Liseux (affectionately known as The "Little Flower")  have offered profound alternatives to the relentless pursuit of worldly success, challenging us to redefine true fulfillment through the lens of Gospel Perfection.

Discover how the virtues of humility, mercy, and forgiveness have guided saints in their pursuit of authentic love and spiritual growth. By embracing Gospel values, we explore practical ways to silence the noise of societal pressures and focus on nurturing a heart filled with Christ's love. From reducing screen time in preparation for the upcoming Lenten season, to understanding the powerful connection to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, the conversation offers timely insights into living a life aligned with spiritual rather than material values.

Young people today are increasingly drawn to the authenticity of traditional Christian practices. Our discussion reflects on this cultural shift, with Colleen sharing her observations of the resurgence of traditions like the Latin Mass, and its impact on family life through education choices being made by families. Whether it's the rise of homeschooling or the pushback against modern cultural phenomena, there's a growing desire to reclaim solid doctrine and spiritual truth. Join us as we explore these currents and seek inspiration from saints to enrich our journeys and those of our families.

This interview was recorded on Nov. 13, 2024.

To learn more about Colleen's work and find her books, please visit:
Her website is:
https://www.colleen-campbell.com
Colleen's Substack:
https://colleencarrollcampbell.substack.com/
Colleen's Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/colleencarrollcampbell/
Colleen on X/Twitter:
https://x.com/colleenccampbel

To reach Veil + Armour on social media
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/@veilandarmour
Website: https://veilandarmour.com
Sheila's Website: https://sheilanonato.com
X/Twitter: https://www.x.com/@sheilanonato

Here are the books Sheila mentioned at the end of the episode: St. Francis of Assisi by Father Lovasik, S.V.D. (from Seton Home Study Program)
The Heart of Perfection by Colleen Carroll Campbell 
https://colleen-campbell.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Exploring Gospel Perfection Through Saints
• 5:32 Discovering Gospel Perfection Through Saints
• 14:16 Navigating Perfection and Gospel Values
• 19:57 Balancing Success and Spiritual Values
• 24:14 Youth Embracing Tradition and Faith
• 27:58 Youth Seeking Tradition and Solid Doctrine
• 33:46 Catholic Values in Education and Society

Transcript

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 0:00

I think that's why you see all of this different evidence of young adults attracted to a more robust and small, oh, orthodox faith orthodox meaning right belief. So they want something solid and that expresses itself, as you said, in different ways. Love young people enough to tell them the truth, even when the truth you're telling them lies in the face of the lies the world is telling them. That's precisely when you need to tell them the truth.

Sheila Nonato: 0:29

Hello and welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast. This is your host, Sheila Nonato. I'm a stay-at-home mom and a freelance Catholic journalist, Seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the inspiration of Our Lady. I strive to tell stories that inspire, illuminate and enrich the lives of Catholic women, to help them in living out our vocation of raising the next generation of leaders and saints.

Co-Host: 0:52

Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour podcast, where stories come alive through a journalist's lens and mother's heart.

Sheila Nonato: 1:02

St Valentine's Day is when we celebrate love with the exchange of gifts like roses, a box of chocolates, perhaps some sparkly diamond baubles. The materialism of these gifts, like material perfectionism, is, on the surface, beautiful to look at, yet to get to the heart and authenticity of perfection we need to dig deeper. Is love a feeling, an emotion, a commitment? The commitment we see in the sacrament of marriage echoes love and devotion. The day of your wedding is a day of excitement and the promise of everlasting love, as it was for John and Colleen Carroll Campbell. Colleen, who was our guest last week. She had written about the saints and what she learned from them, about God's perfection, in contrast to the counterfeit version of worldly perfectionism. This was the wedding toast by their friend. May the Lord break both your hearts. It gave them pause and also a clue to the gospel perfection that God is calling us to aspire to. What is the value of a broken heart? Colleen wrote in her book the Heart of Perfection. Colleen explores the Sacred Heart of Jesus in her book. On the cross, our Lord was pierced through the side by a Roman soldier, piercing his lungs and his heart as both blood and water flowed from his body. The broken body and the broken heart of Christ. What do they teach us about breaking free from worldly perfection and exploring gospel perfection? Let's listen to Colleen to find out.

Sheila Nonato: 2:53

Hello Sisters in Christ. Welcome back to part two, and we will explore the question of how to escape from, find freedom in Christ and seeking Christ and seeking the love of Christ and finding that freedom from perfectionism.

Sheila Nonato: 3:10

In her 20s, colleen Carroll Campbell achieved the perfect career path for a young idealist with big dreams. She was in the White House, working as a speech writer for President George W. Bush, working in the center of power amongst highly ambitious people, looking to make their mark and help make a difference in the world. Yet it was not the glamour of power that she felt drawn to. As she writes in her book, "he Heart of Perfection how the saints taught me Me to Trade my Dream of Perfect for God's, she found herself surprisingly looking to St Francis, the humble saint who gave it all up his father's wealth, a comfortable lifestyle, and who embraced the poor, the lepers and Christ's suffering. What was it about St Francis that Colleen was drawn to? What did she learn from him and from the saints about gospel perfection, and how can we turn our hearts towards the heart of Christ and free ourselves from chasing after what the world sees as success in money, fame, power, status, and to trade it for God's invitation to mercy, forgiveness, charity and authentic, selfless love.

Sheila Nonato: 4:37

God bless, and let's pray the Saint Francis prayer. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Lord, make me an instrument of your peace. Where there is hatred, let me sow love. When there is injury, pardon. When there is doubt, faith. When there is despair, hope. When there is darkness, light. When there is sadness, joy. O Divine Master, granted, I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love, for it is in giving that we receive, it is in pardoning that we are pardoned and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen. And when you mentioned obedience, I'm also thinking about St. Francis, who you mentioned in the book, another saint you mentioned and you had written about. His conversion was quite dramatic when he rejected his father's wealth and he embraced poverty. What can we learn from S t. Francis and sort of recovering from our perfectionist tendencies.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 5:47

Yes, St. Francis is an interesting guy. On that same trip we were able to go to Assisi and spend a lot of time there, which was not a lot of time but enough to really see all of the sites and appreciate him once again. I had been there years ago but it was fun for my kids to see Assisi and where this. You can just picture Francis, up and down the hills of Assisi, this troubadour partying with his friends late at night, singing in the alleys and streets. And you know, he was just kind of this happy-go-lucky, rich kid who was beloved by everyone. And that's where I explored social perfectionism a little bit in my book, the Heart of Perfection, because he was very much in that vein. He was attentive to what others thought of him, to what he was wearing, to how he looked, to how popular he was, and then in the course of his conversion he really did a 180. All of a sudden he's, you know, he's embracing lepers, he's living as a poor man, he's wearing rags, he's panhandling from his old party friends and he experiences a lot of rejection, a lot of humiliation. And yet he comes to see that that's how he draws near Christ crucified, about letting go of the world's standards, what the world said he needed to be happy, what he had always believed, were the limits of what he could do. I can't embrace lepers, I can't live poor, I can't give up my dreams of glory, whatever it was, and really accept that God had a completely different vision for him and one that, of course we know, revolutionized the church I mean, really revitalized it at a time when the church was in great, great peril. And you know, the Pope had this dream of this little friar holding up the whole church. You know: "ebuild my church.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 7:31

And Francis did it with God's grace, through God's grace, and was known as the most Christ-like person since Christ himself.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 7:38

And it all began when he began to let go of the comparison and the standards of the world and just really tune his ear to what Jesus was asking of him in particular, even if it wasn't what he was asking of everyone else around him. And I think that's a tough thing to do in our world, especially today for people at any stage of life. In part because of the influence of the internet and social media, we are constantly bombarded with images of what everybody else is doing and what everyone else values, and there's no way to get away from them, because they're on our phones, which are on us 24-7, right? So I think it takes a great deal of discipline to kind of put that aside, tune in through prayer to what the Holy Spirit is calling us to do and then have the boldness that Francis had to act on it, to let go of that worldly perfectionism and start striving after gospel perfection, which is an entirely different thing, which is all about surrender and stepping out in faith rather than control and conforming to the world.

Sheila Nonato: 8:39

And when you mentioned boldness, I remember in your book you talked about St. Therese when she said I choose all. And what is it about the heart of Jesus that can help us to heal and see that we should trade this in for humility?

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 9:00

Yes, well, the sacred heart is a really interesting devotion. We know that it actually has its origins in the earliest days of the church, which is something a lot of Catholics don't know. I mean, we can find this all the way back in Scripture, you know, in the pierced heart of Jesus in Scripture. And when that blood and water flowed out from the heart of Jesus, we know that, you know, john leaned against the heart of Christ, who was the closest to Christ of the apostles in terms of that kind of heart to heart connection. And then we see, through the fathers of the church, from the very beginnings of the church all the way through more modern, better known saints such as Margaret, mary and various other saints who had a devotion to the sacred heart, that this is a core part of our faith is this sense of connecting heart to heart with Christ and asking Jesus to pick out our hearts of stone and replace them with a heart of flesh, with his own heart. And one thing that struck me as I researched all of these recovering perfectionist saints, as I call them, the guys like Benedict and Francis and Therese and Jane de Chantal and Francis de Sales, and each one of them, Alphonse Liguri and many others I didn't put in the book. I was struck by how many of them had a deep devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and I thought, well, what's the connection there? And what I really found to be is well, therese, I would say, expressed it the best, as Therese so often does. But it was really this sense that we have to ask the Lord to replace our hearts with his heart, to allow us to love the difficult people in our lives. We try to cope with the difficult situations in our lives with our own strength. You know we're going to white knuckle it. I'm going to be better today. I'm going to be more patient with this person, I'm going to be kinder, and we kind of come very quickly to the end of our own strengths and our own love. Place our heart with his, in a sense. When we say Jesus, love this person through me, because, man, I do not have what it takes, which is Therese talked talked so much about and wrote poems about it. She has some beautiful writings on the Sacred Heart that I think deserve more attention. When we do that, then we open ourselves up to this infinite font of love, the love of Christ, and that's really what he wants.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 11:23

I think the perfectionist impulse is to assume that if we've got this really difficult situation or person, jesus is asking us to handle it all ourselves. And then, when we feel we can't, we get very frustrated Like why do you put this in my life if I clearly can't do this? And the answer is, yeah, you can't do it, you cannot do it on your own. And once you realize that, then you're actually starting to get somewhere, because then you realize I need to do this for and with you.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 11:51

And once we begin to do that kind of surrender you know we saw this a lot in Mother Teresa of Calcutta how she saw Christ in the poor but then also asked Christ to love them through her her. You know she wanted to be his arms and feet to love these people. But she knew the love had to start with him and that's why she wouldn't let her sisters out into the streets of Calcutta until each one had done a Eucharistic holy hour each day. And she said if you don't have time to pray, then don't go out in the streets for Jesus, because you won't be bringing Jesus to them, then you'll just be bringing yourself, and the world doesn't need more confused people who are just bringing their own strength.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 12:28

We got a lot of nice people in the world trying to do nice things, but because they're not tapped into this source of love, there's a real limit on how much good they can do.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 12:38

But if we allow ourselves to be vessels of God's love by admitting that we don't have enough in ourselves, that we need his heart, that we need to adopt his sacred heart and to allow our wounds to be there, just as his are there, and to allow him to work through those wounds rather than denying that they exist, then there's no limit to what we can do for Jesus, because then we become real vessels of his love in the world.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 13:03

And I think that's why we're seeing a revitalization of the Sacred Heart devotion. Too often, I think in the past, it's been seen merely as one about reparation and guilt, and there's an element of, you know, obviously, doing reparations of the Sacred Heart and First Fridays you know my family and I are very active with devotions on First Fridays. But I think it's also important to recognize this is also a way to evangelize today, a new evangelization of reaching people also through the heart, because our world, unfortunately, is tuning out a lot of head arguments, but people are still open to somebody sharing their heart and the heart of Christ. We can't share any better heart than that.

Sheila Nonato: 13:45

And just to touch upon this concept that you mentioned, the heart and love and the title of your book, the Heart of Perfection. You write in the book to be perfect is to love as God loves. And is that what perfection means, then? Is to love perfectly our own imperfections as well as the imperfect people and imperfect world that we live in.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 14:06

Yeah, I think that's a great summary, Sheila, and I make this distinction a lot in "he Heart of Perfection that we live in. Yeah, I think that's a great summary, sheila, and I make this distinction a lot in the heart of perfection, that we've got this idea of perfection, and it's worldly perfection. And then there's gospel perfection, and I know for myself at least I often thought they were similar, maybe not quite the same thing, but similar in the sense that they're all about being the best, flawless. But really, if you look at gospel perfection as lived in the lives of the saints and as shown to us through Christ himself in the gospels, it's turning the world's values upside down. Right, it's not about control but about surrender. It's not about winning but about letting go.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 14:47

And there are a million other ways that I go into in more detail in the book about how gospel perfection is so radically different from what our world holds up as perfection that we really have to be ready to let go of the world's idea of perfection entirely before we're going to make intense progress on the path to gospel perfection.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 15:07

And of course, we're not going to reach our own. You know, we're not going to achieve perfection on earth in the sense of oh, now I've got the perfect life and the perfect heart and I'm doing everything perfectly. Of course, now we're fallen human beings, but the more we open ourselves to this gospel ideal, the more possible it becomes to love the Lord with a pure heart, with motives that are separated from self, that are more about truth surrendered to him. And this is not something I've got licked by any measure. You can hang out with me for a few days and see that I don't. So I don't hold myself up as the exemplar of this, but I do talk about my own struggles in the heart of perfection and some breakthroughs, and certainly the struggles and breakthroughs of these recovering perfectionist saints, to remind readers that this is possible, to make this kind of serious progress toward true joy, toward true gospel values and toward holiness, precisely by letting go of our old ideas of what it takes to be the best or to do things quote-unquote right.

Sheila Nonato: 16:14

And as we are approaching, Advent and Christmas can be a very stressful time for people, can lead to increased anxiety, even depression. As women and as mothers, what is a concrete way that we can choose to let go of perfection in favour of God's idea of perfect love? Is it less social media, more prayer time? Is there a concrete sort of step that we can take?

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 16:50

I'm on a few sites, not a lot, but you know enough to know what's going on. But I don't see a lot of benefit for our spiritual life and social media. You know, certainly when you want to know what's going on it's kind of fun to go see. Okay, this is what they're all saying, but I find for myself it's very scattering and distracting and kind of gets me in the wrong mindset. So I do think we should be very careful about our consumption of social media and screens in general. And you know I'm talking to myself as much as anyone else I'm. You know I got my phone with me a lot of the day too, so it's a struggle for me as well. And I have a. I have a new Sub stack. Your listeners can find it going to my website, colleen-campbell. com, and there's some some links. I've just started a sub stack where one of the things I write about is just the, just the attraction to screens, the dependence on screens and how that really scatters our focus from the things that matter. So I think you know reducing our screen time you know I know in Advent I always try to stay off a lot of social media and the news and you know, at least reducing the consumption of that can be really helpful.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 17:53

I also think that, as you said, the prayer. That's super important, carving out more time for prayer. And then I think another piece of it is letting go of this perfectionist idea of having the perfect Christmas, doing it the perfect way. We're going to hit all the traditions. You know it can get overwhelming, especially you know, if you do something one or two times and it becomes a tradition that you can't break.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 18:13

And you know, at some point, the more kids you have and the more years you go on you can get, you can start drowning in traditions and it can become a really busy time of year with the activities and the Christmas programs, the recitals and all the rest.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 18:24

So I do think it's good to kind of keep our eye on the ball in Advent, and if that means we don't have what looks like the world's perfect Christmas, if we skip a few things that we used to always do on Christmas and this year we don't do them, so mommy can have some sanity and everybody can keep their focus more on Jesus, I think that's okay. And I also think observing Advent just the fact that this is like a mini- Lent and really holding to that. It's tough for every year. I mean, the Christmas decorations go up now, you know, the day after Halloween, but we don't have to live like that. We can still hold out and in our little domestic churches this can still be a peaceful, prayerful time of expectant, joyful waiting and not, you know, just Christmas that lasts two months and then ends on December 26th.

Sheila Nonato: 19:10

That's. That's great advice, and I'd like to hopefully be able to implement some of that.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 19:16

I need to because you know I'm a good talk, but like everyone else, I get caught up in all of it myself.

Sheila Nonato: 19:24

And and I just want to go back to your career as a presidential speechwriter the former President, George W. Bush. I just wanted to sort of can you give us a glimpse into that world? I'm sure it was very fast paced, and how did that coincide with your faith?

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 19:42

Yeah, well, I wrote about that in greater detail in "y Sister's the Saints. In fact there's a whole chapter just about that time of my life, my Sister's the Saints. In fact there's a whole chapter just about that time of my life. And specifically I was struggling at that time because my then fiance was in medical school in St Louis and I got this job at the White House in Washington DC when we were already engaged and planning to be married soon. So we kind of put the wedding on hold so I could go out there and start this job. And then it was. You know, he couldn't really transfer medical schools, I couldn't transfer the White House over to St Louis. But there was a great struggle that I went through to figure out what to do, because there again, you know, the world has a very clear idea of what success is, and working at the White House is success. Leaving that kind of a job so you can go get married not so successful, at least in the eyes of the world dumb move in the eyes of the world. So that was a struggle that I had and I wrote a lot about that in my Sisters the Saints and St Faustina and her litany. You know her spirituality of trust in Jesus. That really helped me during that time.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 20:43

But to answer your question, yes, it was very fast paced. I mean I remember working 10, 11 o'clock on a Sunday night, taking a call from Condi (Condoleeza) Rice or Karl Rove or whoever was the final word on such and such speech. You know you'd have a staffing process of dozens of people chiming in on every word you wrote and then I, you know I had the opportunity to work directly with President George W. Bush on a number of things, and you know, in the Oval Office. So it was thrilling, it was exhausting.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 21:10

You know, there's a saying that one year in the White House, it's like dog years. It ages you pretty fast, it gets tired of it pretty quickly. So I like the excitement of it. But at the same time, you know, I'm grateful for the life that I have now. It's not nearly as exciting or impressive, but it's a lot more peaceful and I feel like I'm addressing the issues that matter the most. And I'm grateful for the time I had there and I think the work I did there was important too, and certainly don't want to put down those in public service. It's important and we need more principled people in public service and public life. But I do think, as with everything else, what is flashiest and most obvious and prestigious to people sometimes is overvalued in comparison to what really lasts and what really has eternal worth.

Sheila Nonato: 21:58

Amazing. And was President Bush and Mrs. Bush as down to earth as they seemed to be?

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 22:03

Yeah, he was a great guy. I really enjoyed working with him and I didn't get to know her as much, but he was, yeah, he was. You know, he was one of those rare public people, you see, who pretty much is down to earth and friendly with you in person, just as they might appear on TV. I mean he was a tough editor. He wasn't always, you know, he could be grumpy if you wrote something he thought was a waste of time or you were repeating yourself or whatever. I mean he wasn't, he wasn't all you know smiles.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 22:31

Obviously he's the leader of the free world, he's a serious guy, but I thought he was a genuinely good man and, for whatever qualms people have about this or that policy decision he made, I think you'll find very few people who work closely with him who wouldn't confirm that he was a man of genuine faith and real decency, who was particularly, I saw kind of people who couldn't necessarily pay him back, who weren't on his level or you know, because a lot of times again, you see people in power.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 23:00

They seem nice on TV and then in person they're, you know, they're kind of mean to the lowlier people, and he was the opposite. He would go out of his way to, I think, acknowledge the dignity of those working with and for him and those that others might not notice. And I know when we'd have speeches and I'd write the stories of some of these ordinary Americans that he was lifting up in his speeches and then they'd meet him. I mean, he was really genuine with them and showed some real humility and that was nice to see in a leader. You don't see that enough these days.

Sheila Nonato: 23:33

Awesome. And did he give any Christmas gifts? I'm just curious.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 23:37

I pretty did. I think we got like White House M&Ms or something, I don't remember. No, I got ornaments. I think they give you White House ornaments, okay, cool.

Sheila Nonato: 23:47

Yeah and yeah, this concept of holiness and politics. Some might think that doesn't go together. But when you were there you wrote that you were reading St. Francis. That seems sort of diametrically opposed to power. And here is St. Francis, the opposite of power. What was the attraction? Why were you reading St. Francis?

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 24:11

Well, that was precisely the attraction, that it was the opposite. So I was in this place, full of egos and posturing and the staffing process alone, which is the process by which a presidential speech is edited. So I would write the speech and then, like everybody, and their grandmother would come in with the editing pen and tell me what to change, and then my job was to fight them off and make sure it stayed a clear, good speech, which wasn't easy, and I was. I was pretty young, you know, I was in my 20s, and a lot of these people were much older and more experienced than I was and much more politically connected and astute. So it was a tough environment. I mean high, high stress and just so much posturing and so much ego. And that is not to blame the Bush administration. You see it in any administration. You see it all over Washington. It's famous for, I mean, you know you don't get to Washington not feeling pretty good about yourself, and thinking your ideas are important and everybody should listen to them.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 25:02

So in the midst of that, I did become very attracted to St. Francis of Assisi, because his humility, his rejection of worldly pomp and power and status, his poverty, it all was so, so, different from what I was surrounded by every Assisi that has lasted to this day.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 25:30

We named two of our children for Francis and Claire. I have a Joseph Francis and a Clara. Like I said, I've been to Assisi a few times and we've brought our children just this past year, and our family is very Franciscan in many ways. You know been in a Franciscan parish and we walk a Unipro Sarah Franciscan pilgrimage every year with a bunch of other Catholics here on the coast of California to remember the Franciscans who first evangelized this coast. I do think this could be a real Franciscan moment in the life of the church, because what we need in times that are this confusing and lost in many ways is the same kind of boldness that we saw from St Francis, that sense of of. I'm just going to do something completely new and radically oriented toward Christ, not something that fits in with the world, but rather something that stands out and kind of step out fearlessly in faith. That's what he did, and I think we need more Catholics willing to do that today.

Sheila Nonato: 26:26

And finally, speaking of this boldness and not fitting in the book you wrote, "he New Faithful, where you were documenting young Christians turning to orthodoxy, are we seeing the fruits of that? I feel like you predicted you saw this trend that was coming, that youth are hungry for tradition, that they want to learn about their history, tradition, that they want to learn about their history, and some of them are. You know, Novus Ordo. Masses are great. Some of them are interested in the Latin mass. There are young women wearing veils. Not everyone does it, but there are some. So how did you see this trend? This was maybe over 10 years ago now, right?

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 27:09

Actually more than years ago, 20 years ago now, yes, yes, I laugh because about once every year or two you'll see some splashy article in the Washington Post or New York Times or Atlantic, saying with all these young traditional people, where did they come from? And I'm just thinking, okay, I wrote about this a lot and I wasn't the only one to write about it. But I will say, when it came out the new faithful in 2002, you know, I got a lot of flack from older folks, especially baby boomers, who said you got to be making this up. This is not happening. And you know you're exaggerating this or that. I don't see this, or many of them saw it and they hated it and just wanted it to go away. See this, or many of them saw it and they hated it and just wanted it to go away, and so it's really funny. So now you know, now it's every time we see.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 27:58

You know the more recent statistics. There was a survey, I think, of young priests, how they were overwhelmingly identified more with their grandparents' generation than with the generation between them, with baby boomer priests, in terms of their liturgical or traditional preferences, whatever other doctrine, when we see that young people are attracted to those ministries and parishes where the Gospel is preached without compromise, where the Church's teachings are defended instead of denigrated, where there's reverence in the liturgy, whether that be the ordinary or the extraordinary form, because I do think that's ultimately what people are seeking in the Mass is the reverence. For, you know, if this really is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, then why are we not showing great reverence in receiving him and in this liturgy? Why is it sometimes look like a? You know? Why do you walk into churches where people are talking so loudly? You think you went to the circus instead of mass, or, you know, before mass, or why aren't we, you know, worshiping with the level of reverence and beauty that the Lord deserves? And so, again, I think that's all. Those are all things that I did see 20 years ago when traveling the country and interviewing all of these young people, and they were primarily Catholics. They were also evangelicals, many of whom were converting to Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy in a few cases.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 29:20

But it was this hunger for tradition and by that I don't necessarily mean what Catholics think of, as you know traditional list, and that's certainly a piece of it, but it's also something broader just this hunger for solid doctrine. You know I want to hear what the church teaches and what the reasoning is and I want to learn about that. I don't want you to soft pedal it for me and tell me how to make this easy. I don't want it to be easy because life is hard and I get that and I know that the truth that Jesus is calling me to is probably going to be demanding or it doesn't feel like it's really true. And so I think you see that today. I think we're going to always see that.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 29:58

I mean you can go back to scripture and see signs. You know Paul warning us all week in the readings of the mass. You know, pay attention to sound doctrine, show reverence and have self-control. And you know this is how the church grew. You know, through the blood of the martyrs, through the witness of those who were uncompromising in their allegiance to Christ and their willingness to buck the world when that's what it took to show their reverence for him and their love for him. And I think that's always how the church has grown. It's always how the church has appealed to the young.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 30:30

And I think whenever we try to soft pedal things or turn the mass into a clown show where everyone's just, you know, yucking it up and having a great time but it's not really about Jesus, then we're going to fail and we're not going to attract people, and I think that's why you see all of this different evidence of young adults attracted to a more robust and small Orthodox faith Orthodox meaning right belief. So they want something solid and that expresses itself, as you said, in different ways, sometimes in a certain, you know, liturgical preferences. Sometimes it's more in the books that they're reading, the podcasts they're listening to. Sometimes it takes a more troubling form when you know more fringe characters are kind of seizing upon that and then sometimes distorting things in a way that I think can create more divisiveness than unity. But in any case, it's real and I think church leaders have to pay attention to the fact that young people today want solid food. They don't want to be pandered to. And that was the case when John Paul was Pope, when I was writing the book, and he was very popular with the New Faithful because he gave it to him straight, and it was the case, you know. I think it's the case today. I think that's always going to be the case.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 31:41

Young people want you to tell them the truth. I remember someone told me or perhaps it was in an article that I had quoted in that book, but they said I think it was an interview. He told me you know what I like about John Paul II. He loved us enough to tell us the truth and I just you know. I really think that's a good lodestar, for today's church leaders: Love young people enough to tell them the truth, even when the truth you're telling them flies in the face of the lies the world is telling him. That's precisely when you need to tell them the truth and when you were talking about, again, orthodoxy and sort of tradition.

Sheila Nonato: 32:19

This is just my assessment, but it seems like there seems to be an attraction to a nostalgia about a return to tradition or conservatism, small C or big C. The US just had an election. In Giorgia Meloni, was elected. There seems to be sort of a hunger for that. Do you see that as well? What do you make of the?

Sheila Nonato: 32:38

U. S. election.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 32:40

Yeah, I do think that was a huge factor. I think the woke hysteria has gotten just out of hand. I think a lot of ordinary Americans, even who don't consider themselves conservative, are just looking around saying, wow, things are getting pretty weird. You know, we've got men punching women in the Olympics and winning medals for it because they're identifying as women. We've got, you know, Catholics being told they have to perform abortions because otherwise they're violating someone else's rights. So we've got, you know, there's just a lot of things going on culturally that I think are troubling to a lot of rank and file Americans. I won't pretend that's the only reason for you know this kind of swing in that direction, nor will I would I say that you know candidates line up perfectly with the Catholic Church who's been supported by some of these. But I do think you're seeing kind of a backlash, and I think that's predictable, because I think the culture has changed so radically and so quickly that I think a lot of Americans are kind of stepping back and saying, "oh no, some of this doesn't seem right.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 33:46

Kids were learning when their kids were Zooming from home with their school and saying wait a minute, this is what you're learning in school, that you know I could do this better myself. And then you saw the huge spike in homeschooling rates, which I would argue is going to have a more profound effect than anything at the polls. It's how we raise our kids, and those who are choosing to homeschool their kids or send them to classical Catholic or Christian schools or make sure that their children are educated, not brainwashed, because I think we see a lot of that on college campuses, where there's just one way you're allowed to think and anyone who deviates from that is canceled or silenced or harassed. And I think more and more Americans are waking up to that and saying you know, wait, who's running our schools? Who's running our school board? Who's running these universities that my taxpayer dollars are funding and why are they enforcing this group thing that contradicts my values and the values that have been at the heart of American democracy for 200 years.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 34:39

So I think the deeper and more important trends are the ones that are happening in families, in churches, in neighborhoods, in communities, on school boards and people pulling their kids out of school or moving them to different schools. That's where we're going to see that longer term impact, and you know, it also becomes a war of attrition at some point, because you know the side in our culture that is so anti-life, that is so embracing not simply allowing abortion but really embracing abortion, really seeing childlessness as something to be exalted and children as a real problem, which you know, just in the course of raising children I've seen in the last 15 years how attitudes have gotten more and more hostile toward children. I mean, these days in my neighborhood if you see a stroller and there's a child in it instead of a dog, it's. You know we do a little happy dance on the sidewalk because it's rare. So I mean we're headed in a really troubling direction in many ways in this country.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 35:46

But I do think the good news is a lot of Americans are waking up and saying I don't know, I may not have my whole philosophy down, I might not have my theology straight, but I know some of this doesn't look right. I know children should be the future. I know their innocence should be protected. I know men don't belong in women's bathrooms. I know some of this stuff just isn't right.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 36:05

And so the more Americans wake up to that, the more important I think it's going to be for faithful Catholics who are well-versed in their faith to be raising up tomorrow's leaders who can then guide their fellow citizens towards something that is more fulfilling and life-giving and God-honoring.

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 36:21

I think, really, the leaders of tomorrow are going to be the kids of today who are raised without a lot of screens, without a lot of influence from the social media, same obsessed culture, raised to think for themselves and to think with the church and to lead for Jesus. I think those kids are going to be real leaders because we've seen that the schools today are not producing leaders. They're producing a lot of lockstep conformists. So our children need to be leaders because those folks are going to need some guidance and they can either get it from the world or they can get it from those who love God and respect his values. You know, I'm hopeful that the next generation there might not be large majorities of people who you know attend church and follow the Ten Commandments and all the rest of it, but I do think those who are clear headed about the problems we face are poised to be the leaders.

Sheila Nonato: 37:15

As a Catholic mother, I appreciated that you raised this question in your book, or this idea in your book that are we looking to have our kids go to Harvard or get to heaven? And we sometimes forget, yes, the material, you know the material, earthly successes, achievements. They're there and everyone wants to strive for that. But we also have another, more supernatural sort of out. We need to have another outlook, a supernatural outlook that we are not only here for this earth or this life, but for the supernatural life. Here for this earth or this life, but for the supernatural life. And I'm really honoured to have you today to talk about your book and it's been such a blessing and I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. Was there anything else that you wanted to add?

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 38:03

No, I really enjoyed talking with you, Sheila, and I think that's great that we always, as you said, we just, we always want to keep that horizon of heaven in front of us, even more than this or that battle we're waging, you know, in the culture, in politics, even skirmishes in the church, we always want to remember that at the end of the day, that's our goal is to become saints and to live in you know, forever with Jesus and to get everyone in our lives to heaven too, and ultimately that's God's work, not ours. But we can cooperate with it. And I think in the realm of the home, the family and then our own spheres of influence, our parishes, our workplaces, we can have a huge impact, and I think it's tempting to think our impact can't be big unless we're big. We're doing something really splashy out there in the world, but actually I think the opposite is true. I think what your listeners are doing in their daily lives, in the parts of their lives no one can see, that's probably the most important work of all.

Sheila Nonato: 39:00

Amen, and can you please remind us where can we find your work? Where can listeners connect with you?

Colleen Caroll Campbell: 39:08

Sure. So my website is www. colleen-campbellcom and that has" Heart of Perfection. Links to the Heart of Perfection, my Sisters, the Saints, the New Faithful. You can also check me out on Substack. I have a Substack where I publish occasional essays on these and related topics, and I have a page on my website where I do list some of my upcoming speaking engagements. You can catch me there too.

Sheila Nonato: 39:35

Amazing. Thank you so much again, Colleen. I really appreciate your time and God bless you and your family and your work. Thank you very much. Thank you, God bless, take care. Okay, Bye-bye, bye-bye, bye.

Sheila Nonato: 40:00

Thank you to Colleen Carroll Campbell for joining us this week, for sharing the lessons she learned. Bye-bye, I urge you to, I invite you to join me in dedicating some time during the morning in prayer to focus our day to give thanks to God, first and foremost, to give gratitude to God, and then to focus our day to what can we offer God in our day, what can we offer God in our day, and to offer our little crosses, our little sufferings and challenges, and also to give gratitude for all the joys and blessings that God has given us.

Sheila Nonato: 40:41

And I just wanted to also touch upon the theme of the heart in Greek, in the New Testament. In Greek, the word for heart is "kardia, and it doesn't only mean emotions, it also talks about the intellect, the emotions and the will. And in this sense, it is calling for a complete and inner transformation, not just of our feelings or emotions, but of our whole self, our whole body. Transformation not just of our feelings or emotions, but of our whole self, our whole body, and so when God calls us to a change of heart, he really means a change, an inner and complete transformation of ourselves. And I invite you, julian, as we prepare for Lent, if you'd like some spiritual readings.

Sheila Nonato: 41:26

So this is what my children have been reading through the Seton Home Study that's the story about St Francis. If you have another book, another children's book, that has sort of St Francis, that might be helpful to you. And I also invite you to pick up Colleen's book, "he Heart of Perfection, and all of the information will be in the show notes. But that really helped me to also go deeper in my faith and in my prayer life and to look at scripture in a different way, and I look forward to sharing more stories with you. And if you found this episode in our podcast helpful, please share with a friend who might benefit from it. And may God bless you all. May God continue to bless you and we thank you for your prayers and for spending some time with us, your precious time, to listen to these stories of empowerment, of empowerment in Christ and inspiration and transformation. Thank you and God bless.

Co-Host: 42:30

Thank you for listening and happy birthday to my big sister. We love you.

Sheila Nonato: 42:52

Thank you for listening to the Veil and Armor podcast.

Co-Host: 42:55

I invite you to share this with another Catholic mom today. Please subscribe to our podcast and YouTube channel and please spread the word. Let's Be Brave, let's Be Bold and Be Blessed together.