29. Find Biblical Balance, and Freedom from Worldly and Spiritual Perfectionism and Embrace God's Perfect Love with Colleen Carroll Campbell

Find Freedom from Perfectionism and Embrace God's Perfect Love with Colleen Carroll Campbell

In this episode of the Veil and Armour podcast, host Sheila Nonato welcomes Colleen Carroll Campbell, an award-winning journalist, best-selling Catholic author, former Presidential Speech Writer, and homeschooling Mom, to discuss her critically-acclaimed book, "The Heart of Perfection." 

Colleen shares insights on the pervasive issue of perfectionism in the age of social media, comparing oneself to others, and the distinction between material and spiritual perfection. She emphasizes the dangers of both social and spiritual perfectionism, advocating for a deeper understanding of God’s grace and love. Colleen also discusses her personal journey from a high-profile career to embracing motherhood and homeschooling, guided by faith and divine nudges. The episode highlights the teachings of saints like St. Ignatius of Loyola and St. Benedict, offering practical advice on achieving balance and understanding God's will in daily life. The conversation explores the transformative power of accepting one's imperfections and trusting in God's grace, and His Divine plan.

This interview was recorded on Nov. 13, 2024. Thank you for your prayers and support!

To find out more about Colleen's work and her books, "The Heart of Perfection," "My Sisters the Saints," and "The New Faithful," please visit:
https://www.colleen-campbell.com

You can also follow Colleen's work on Facebook and Substack (A Better Homeland - Colleen Carroll Campbell)
https://www.facebook.com/colleencarrollcampbell
https://colleencarrollcampbell.substack.com/

00:00 Introduction to Perfectionism

00:34 Understanding Social and Spiritual Perfectionism

00:53 Saints and Their Struggles with Perfection

01:38 Defining Perfection in Daily Life

02:26 Guest Introduction: Colleen Carroll Campbell

03:33 Embracing Imperfection

05:38 Welcome to this week's episode!

08:39 Colleen's Journey: Career to Motherhood

16:37 Navigating Perfectionism in Faith and Life

19:14 Saint Ignatius and Overcoming Perfectionism

22:45 Saint Benedict's Blueprint for Balance

28:30 Thank you for Listening!

Themes and Takeaways:

• Social perfectionism and its rise in the age of social media 
• Distinction between material perfection and spiritual perfection 
• Importance of intentions over accomplishments in spiritual growth 
• Colleen's journey managing motherhood and career aspirations 
• Lessons from St. Ignatius on overcoming despair and cultivating trust 
• Value of balance inspired by St. Benedict's teachings 
• Embracing imperfection as a path to God's love and grace 
• The call to create grace-filled homes amidst societal pressures

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to The Heart of Perfection
• 0:34 Understanding Social & Spiritual Perfectionism
• 0:53 Saints and their Struggles with Perfection
• 1:38 What is Perfection in Daily Life?
• 2:26 Guest Introduction: Colleen Carroll Campbell
• 3:33 Embracing Imperfection
• 5:38 Welcome!
• 8:39 Colleen's Journey
• 16:37 Navigating Perfectionism in Faith & Life
• 19:14 St. Ignatius: Desolation and Consolation
• 22:45 The Prophet of Biblical Balance
• 22:45 St. Benedict's Blueprint for Balance
• 28:30 Thank you for listening!

Transcript

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 0:00

It's that addiction to control, to wanting to control things. And I think social perfectionism is much more obvious and common today, especially in the age of social media. And what I mean by that term is comparing ourselves to others, competing constantly with others, you know, comparing our real lives to the airbrushed versions of the lives of others and trying to see if our choices are measuring up our careers are measuring up our kids are measuring up even our face. If our choices are measuring up our careers are measuring up, our kids are measuring up even our faith. Spiritual perfectionism I speak about more. In the heart of perfection. All of these different forms of perfectionism crop up and they're all interlinked. But I do think spiritual perfectionism is at the heart of these, because it's about importing that same distorted thinking into our relationship with God and believing on some level that we need to earn God's love. And of course we know, as good Catholics we're not supposed to believe that and we should know that God's love is a gratuitous gift and all is grace.

Sheila Nonato: 0:53

The Church is not a museum for saints, it's a hospital for sinners, was one of St Augustine's most repeated quotes. Yet even many of the saints and the holy men and women of the Bible had their weaknesses and doubts, just like us, before or even after their conversion towards God. In Scripture and in the accounts of the saints we read how they were not perfect, unlike the unblemished Lamb of God, or the absolute purity of His Mother Mary, or the perfection of God Himself in the Holy Trinity. In the Bible, jesus also teaches us that we must be perfect, as our Heavenly Father is perfect. What does perfection mean in daily life? Is it what the world sees as perfect Beauty, intellect, money, power, status? Is perfection in motherhood and womanhood about how we look, how clean and tidy our homes are, how our children behave in church? Is it about a carefully curated way of living? In this episode, we will look at perfection in the material world and compare it to spiritual perfection. There will be a distinction between God's definition of perfection and perfectionism, the latter being something that can develop into unhealthy habits and spiritual practices. Thing that can develop into unhealthy habits and spiritual practices.

Sheila Nonato: 2:32

This week's guest, Colleen Caroll Campbell, is an award-winning journalist, a best-selling Catholic author and a former presidential speechwriter. Her career achievements are glowing and exceptional, earning the respect and admiration of many, a role model to women and those aspiring to greatness in their motherly and womanly vocation. Yet she shares in her latest book, "he Heart of Perfection, that our definition of perfection is different from what God is calling us to Let go of material perfection and embrace God's perfect love. Let's hear Colleen explain what we can learn from the saints and what is at the true heart of perfection.

Sheila Nonato: 3:16

Hello, Sisters in Christ, Welcome to this week's episode, and I am humbled and honoured to welcome Colleen Caroll Campbell to our podcast this week, and I just wanted to continue to ask for your prayers. I thank you for your prayers for our podcast, apostolate, and I would also like to ask you to please bear with us during the technical difficulties that we had this week. Technical difficulties that we had this week, but I truly believe that the power of Colleen's message can overcome these technical glitches.

Sheila Nonato: 3:55

Sometimes God's timing is actually perhaps perfect, in that this episode about perfection and perfectionism has little technical glitches in the beginning. But isn't that fitting for motherhood, in that we rarely ever find ourselves in the perfect situation or the perfect time to do things. Many times we just have to power through and with God's grace, with God's help, we are able to complete our tasks. We're able to do motherhood, however imperfectly, but to the best of our abilities, with our best intentions, with our children, the best interests of our family in mind, and trying to offer, and trying to offer our little sacrifices and daily crosses for our own families, for ourselves, for whoever might need that prayer, that offering, that day and, as they say, the perfect is not exactly the same as God's, but God is able to turn our little imperfections into something beautiful and something redeeming and something transformative. Thank you again for joining us and let's hear Colleen share what is the true heart of perfection.

Sheila Nonato: 5:38

Hello and welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast. This is your host, Sheila Nonato. I'm a stay-at-home Mom and a freelance Catholic journalist. Seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the inspiration of Our Lady, I strive to tell stories that inspire, illuminate and enrich the lives of Catholic women, to help them in living out our vocation of raising the next generation of leaders and saints.

Co-Hosts: 6:01

Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour podcast, where stories come alive through a journalist's lens and mother's heart.

Sheila Nonato: 6:10

Good afternoon. We have as our guest Colleen Carol Campbell. I wanted to have you as our guest today. Maybe start off with a prayer, please.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 6:21

Okay, great, so you had mentioned maybe saying the Hail Mary together.

Sheila Nonato: 6:25

Yeah, of course yes, In the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 6:33

Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with Thee.

Sheila Nonato: 6:35

The Lord is with thee.

Co-Host: 6:35

Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 6:43

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Sheila Nonato: 6:49

Father in the Son and the Holy Spirit, Amen, and I'm very excited to welcome you today because I read your book the New Faithful in 2002, just after World Youth Day in Toronto and yeah, so it's always been a dream to interview you one day, and I'd like to introduce you to our listeners.

Sheila Nonato: 7:08

Yes, and I'd like to introduce you to our listeners and I'm sure they already know who you are, but I just wanted to let them know, remind them again, that you are an award-winning author, print and broadcast journalist and a former presidential speechwriter. Journalist and a former presidential speechwriter. Colleen's books include her critically acclaimed journalistic study, the New Faithful, her special memoir my Sister the Saints, which won two national awards and has been published in five languages, and her award-winning new release, the Heart of Perfection how the Saints Taught Me to Trade my Dream of Perfect for Gods. Colleen has written for the New York Times, The Washington Post, Christianity Today, America and National Review, and appeared on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, ABC News, PBS, NPR and EWTN, where she hosted her own television and radio show for eight years. A former speechwriter for President George W Bush, an editorial writer and op-ed columnist for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, colleen is the recipient of two honorary doctorates and numerous other awards and fellowships. She speaks to audiences worldwide and lives on the central coast of California with her husband and four children whom she homeschools, and you can visit her online at colleen-campbell. com and for today's podcast.

Sheila Nonato: 8:32

I would love to discuss your book, "he Heart of Perfection, and would like to take a look at the two parts perfection and then the heart. But before we dive in, I was wondering if you could look at a section of the book where you wrote about you know all of these career achievements that you have attained. You wrote about you had a growing dissatisfaction with journalism and that you sensed quote a call to trade the higher profile, chase, the pack media work that impressed others for the deeper, more demanding creative work that attracted me. Others for the deeper, more demanding creative work that attracted me, the work of educating my children and writing books that could change lives, not just mine, unquote. And can you please discuss, explain to us what was this sort of struggle, your internal struggle, that we were having? I'm sure a lot of women have had the struggle about their career and their family. Can you please sort of let us in on how that process went?

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 9:27

Sure, I had a long road to motherhood. My husband and I prayed for children for several years before God blessed us with children and that journey through infertility was a big part of what I wrote about in my memoir, "y Sisters, the Saints. So motherhood didn't come easy for me, pretty central in my life really ever since college and before college I was one of those kids who had a resume in middle school. So I don't like that and I always loved to write and I loved journalism and politics and acting and drawing and anything creative and out there in the world to connecting with people, finding stories, looking at deeper issues. I even dabbled in philosophy. I started work toward a doctorate in philosophy at one point and then left that when I got the job to when I got the offer to write speeches for President Bush in the White House.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 10:18

So I'd been kind of doing a lot of different things and one constant, I would say, in my career and discernment of that was how I'd often be doing something that everyone else thought was really cool and more important, and I would start feeling this nudge from the Holy Spirit to try something new, something maybe I wasn't as skilled at or just didn't have the experience with or didn't have the amazing opportunity with yet, and then kind of step out in faith and try some new things. So it was interesting all through my career. You know, I would leave one thing and people would say, oh, that's crazy, because that's such a neat opportunity, and then eventually I get to doing something else that I thought would even more impactful for God. I mean with plenty of, you know, dips and turns in the roads, like anyone has. But so I kind of learned early in my career, in other words, that you know God's ways are not our ways and sometimes when we listen to those nudges, we can wind up in exciting places doing amazing things for God that we wouldn't have orchestrated ourselves if it had been all up to me to plan it myself.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 11:24

So as my family is growing pretty rapidly I mean I had four children four and under at one point is growing pretty rapidly I mean I had four children four and under at one point. So anyway, long story short is I'd been feeling this tug for a while to go deeper. I'd grown pretty tired of following the news cycle and being on that cycle and I'd gradually taken steps out of that. You know I started in daily journalism, newspaper journalism, and gradually I'd moved further and further away from that news cycle. But now, with littles at home and wanting to spend a lot of time with them, it made more sense than ever to me to dive deeper and specifically into the realm of spiritual writing and creative writing. You know who's up and who's down and what's going on and what are the arguments and who's winning the arguments.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 12:13

But I really think what changes people's lives even more are our stories, witnesses of faith, and more that contemplative aspect and creative aspect of our writing and our literature. So that's the direction I wanted to go. The direction I wanted to go and you know it's scary always to step out of something you know how to do, that you've been successful at, and try something new that you might not be so successful at. But I did feel God nudging me in that direction. And I also felt a very strong pull toward homeschooling my children, which is never something I thought I'd be doing, but it wound up being a really important part of my life and our family's life. So I credit God for giving me those nudges, because I certainly wouldn't have come up with these ideas on my own.

Sheila Nonato: 12:57

And when you mentioned going that route and embracing motherhood and homeschooling, I know a lot of women might feel sort of regret or you know what could have been. But are we looking at it the wrong way, that we are sacrificing something greater for something less than? I know that there are some people I do homeschool my kids as well, and you know maybe some people will be. Why are you wasting your? You have three degrees. What are you doing Homeschooling your children when you can be earning more working outside, working outside? Are we looking at this through?

Sheila Nonato: 13:35

the wrong lens that motherhood is somehow not as important a vocation as working outside the home.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 13:43

Well, certainly, I think the work that we do with our children, it's top in terms of the importance of it. I don't think this looks the same for every woman. I don't think every single woman is called to stay home full-time or to homeschool. I understand that each woman kind of has to discern with her family and with Jesus, what it is he's calling her to do, and I think a lot of women like you and I, sheila, you know, combine some form of key hand in our work with homeschooling. So I don't think it's super black and white, And I, Sheila, you know, combine some form of keep hand in our work with homeschooling. So I don't think it's super black and white, which is sometimes how the world paints it. You know, you're all in or you're all out, you know, and most women want to keep a hand in, but they also want to spend a lot of their best hours with kids, and so for me, homeschooling has been a great gift.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 14:37

Like I said, it wasn't something I pictured myself doing. I figured it was just a career killer for people who didn't maybe have much of a career to start with. So they didn't mind and I've really changed my tune Partly. You know, we started it just as a lark no-transcript too badly, so I'll just try that. And then at the beginning, it became a real way of life and a real focal point for our family and a way that I could say in a very organic way instead of, you know, on Sunday, or a prayer before meals in the evenings which is good, something that was all day long and when they had those really big theological questions, I was the one to answer them instead of whoever happened to be standing in front of them during their eight-hour school day. The socializing too they became very close friends with each other and I could, you know, have more say over the kids we were hanging out with and what they were doing, and we could kind of build a more countercultural intentional list with the help of homeschooling.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 15:39

And I think that's the reason that we've seen the ranks of homeschoolers explode, especially since COVID, because more and more parents are making these sacrifices, because they're saying you know, I don't get these years forever, I have a limited amount of time to influence these children. I'm sorry, did that cut out again? It's okay. I don't know if the internet's that good or I don't know. I haven't had that before, but I don't know. Yeah, right now it's okay.

Sheila Nonato: 16:03

No, problem no problem.

Sheila Nonato: 16:04

We'll work with Holy Spirit. Help us with the internet thing. And I also now would like to turn to your book, because I think again it will resonate with a lot of mothers and women, this idea that we sort of are holding onto, the idea of perfectionism, and in the book you mentioned about social perfectionism and spiritual perfectionism, and can you tell us what is the difference and how did you navigate perfectionism in your own faith and in your own life?

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 16:37

Well, I think the main definition that I use for perfectionism is addiction to control, trying to achieve flawlessness in some human endeavor, which we know as human beings. We're never going to achieve flawlessness in any. It's that, it's that addiction to control, to wanting to control things. And you know, I think social perfectionism is much more obvious and common today, especially in the age of social media, and what I mean by that term is comparing ourselves to others, competing constantly with others, you know, comparing our real lives to the airbrushed versions of the lives of others and and trying to see if our choices are measuring up our careers are measuring up, our kids are measuring up, even our faith.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 17:18

Spiritual perfectionism I speak about more in the heart of perfection. All of these different forms of perfectionism crop up and they're all interlinked. But I do think spiritual perfectionism is at the heart of these, because it's about importing that same distorted thinking into our relationship with God and believing on some level that we need to earn God's love. And of course, we know, as good Catholics, we're not supposed to believe that and we should know better. I know all the stuff I'm supposed to be doing, so it's not okay when I mess up and a little bit of a sense of I've got to do, do do all of these things for God to love me, our other relationships.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 18:12

It can start to make faith seem like more of a slog and something that, if gradually you know, you can burn out a little bit, because God seems very demanding and distant, and then we can also portray that distorted vision to our children.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 18:20

If God is kind of this taskmaster in the sky, always checking off our poor qualities and mistakes, then we can inadvertently pass on that vision to our children. So there's a lot of ways that this can manifest. But I think it is actually particularly a danger for those who are serious about their faith, because they don't want to be slackers and because the world around us is so lax about so many things that it's tempting to go overboard in the other direction and start thinking we got to do this all ourselves, on the basis purely of our own strength and virtue, which is always a dead end, because we know that, you know, it's God's grace that gets us anywhere. Good. Any good in us begins with God's grace and we have to cooperate with that grace. We can't be lazy and do nothing, but we also can't take it upon ourselves to make ourselves little gods who are going to be flawless without God's help every day, His help daily.

Sheila Nonato: 19:15

And in the book you also mentioned St Ignatius and desolation and his consolation. What can we learn from him in helping us to sort of recover from our spiritual perfectionist tendencies?

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 19:38

saints. I think there's eight of them, eight saints and a heretic, or maybe it's seven saints and one heretic. And one of them is Ignatius of Loyola, because of course many of us know of him as the founder of the Jesuits and an expert on discernment, discerning God's will. He has his spiritual examine. He left the church and then his steps for discerning God's will. They really have never been topped in terms of the church's offerings to those of us trying to make important decisions. So we know all of that.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 20:00

A lot of people kind of forget, or maybe don't know that Ignatius was in a sense a perfectionist himself. He struggled a lot in the early days after his conversion with regret over his past sins shame for those and a lot of despair. When he would examine his own lingering sinfulness he could see his weakness, and the more clearly he saw it, the more he got kind of locked in this scrupulous mindset, this despair, this sense that you know all of life is just going to be this uphill slog. I'll never get it right, and you know I should feel shame and disgust for everything that I've ever been and done wrong. And so we even got to a point at one point where he was kind of sitting out over a pit and thinking maybe I should just throw myself into that pit and end it all. So this is where Ignatius was. And then he began to pay attention to the movement of spirits that he had started to notice upon his conversion. But he went deeper into that during his time in Manresa, when he was more by himself in the cave and started to notice where's this coming from? Where is this despair and this desolation coming from? Is that really of God? And as he began to examine those feelings he started to notice that in fact, those feelings of just total self-hatred and recrimination and despair that he could ever do anything worthwhile for God, that was coming from the evil one and it was something he needed to resist openly and intentionally. And at the same time, when he was in a state of consolation where he's feeling hope for the future and love God's love he needed to be ready for those times of desolation.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 21:38

So he talks a lot in his writings about how our spiritual life is, this constant movement through these different states where sometimes we are feeling God's love and we're seeing the future of what God wants us to do very clearly and we feel a great deal of support. And then there are other times where we're really mired in darkness. And God sometimes allows that, so that we don't get too proud, so we don't start thinking it's all on me. But it's also a test. It's a challenge of our faith, to challenge us to be faithful to God even when we don't feel good.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 22:11

And so all of this helped Ignatius get away from this idea that he had to do it all himself and that if he was feeling good it was all him, and if he was feeling lousy everything was awful, and start to lean more into trust in God, which is really what conquering perfectionism comes down to. It comes down to saying you are God and I am not. I can't do anything without your help, and yet you offer me enough grace that I can cooperate with that grace and do amazing things, if that's your will for me. But always I need you and I surrender to you.

Sheila Nonato: 22:45

And another saint that you mentioned in the book is Saint Benedict, and he mentioned the idea of balance and moderation Ora et Labora: pray and work, and you call this a blueprint for biblical balance. What can we learn from St. Benedict?

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 23:03

Well, I think St. Benedict is a great saint for today. My family and I just had the chance to go to Italy recently and we got to see Monte Casino and Subiaco, where he was in his cave kind of for several years, and then Monte Casino, where he built his great monastery, and he is really coming back in vogue for a lot of different reasons. There was a popular book some years ago "Benedict Option got people talking about him and I've liked St Benedict for a very long time, but I appreciate him more and more as a homeschooling mom and living in this culture. That is, in some ways, gone pretty crazy and his idea was, instead of always trying to wrench the culture back around to what you want it to be. You know, we kind of build from what we have. We use our own resources and creativity and institutions to kind of build up a culture a counterculture, I guess you could say that can sustain the faithful and pass on the faith, especially when there are dark times around. And his issue his focus rather on balance was really important to me, especially as I was thinking about how to balance all the things that a lot of women do today. You know my desire to spend a lot of time with my kids, to homeschool them and yet to still keep a hand in writing, still be doing speaking occasionally, still be writing books. And for a long time, when I was younger, I thought this notion of Benedict and balance seemed a little bit lame. You know, moderation, it just sort of seemed like the consolation prize of the virtues. Not very interesting. But as I've gotten older I've come to really appreciate that this sense of balancing our lives and that our lives as a whole need to be balanced, but also that our days need to have a rhythm, that we need routines, that we need structures in place that support what we value most. How beneficial that is.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 24:50

The whole rule of St Benedict is very simple. It's not very long and it's very in some ways addresses very mundane matters. You know when we should get up to pray, how long we should pray, and then we need a, and it's very, in some ways addresses very mundane matters. You know when we should get up to pray, how long we should pray, and then we need a recreation period, we need a work period. But at the heart of it is this very, as I said, biblical idea that we are human creatures who are made of body and soul. We have to acknowledge all the parts of ourselves if we're to live a balanced life that honors God all the parts of ourselves, if we're to live a balanced life that honors God. We can't just go a thousand miles an hour in one direction, say work, and then let everything else go or completely let our health go while we're chasing some other ideal or even be the domestic goddess and completely leave out the other parts of our life that are important.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 25:36

So there's always this sense of trying to find what it is God's calling us to do in the moment, and one of the things I found most helpful for me as a mom was this idea of obedience to the demands of the present moment, that a lot of times what God is calling for is not so much the great deed that we all are looking for we're going to do, the great, dramatic deed, but rather to be obedient in the moment to the inspirations of the Holy Spirit and to the demands of our vocation in the moment, right in this moment. I would rather read this article, but I've got this child standing here who wants to tell me about his day. That's more important In the moment. That's where the obedience is called for and you know another moment it might be. You know, finishing the sweeping is the act of obedience rather than doing the amazing task that's more dramatic.

Colleen Carroll Campbell: 26:28

You know, I always love the story of the Benedictine monk who was asked you know, if the world was ending in five minutes and Jesus was coming back? And he's in the middle of his sweeping. You know what would you do? And he said well, I just keep sweeping because that's what I'm supposed to be doing right now. It's very simple and it can sound even a little boring, but when you're struggling with a world that is out of balance and with so many lives that are out of balance, benedict really starts to seem more like a prophet and like someone we need to hear from more today.

Sheila Nonato: 26:54

Thank you to Colleen Carroll Campbell for this week's episode, Part 1 of the Heart of Perfection. From Colleen we have learned how to distinguish between the world's view of perfection and God's call to perfection in His love. In our fallen world, we see perfection as performance. What have we achieved? In God's view of perfection, he sees the purity of our intention, regardless of whether we achieved what we set out to do perfectly. We allow God to work in us. We allow the Holy Spirit to work in us to perfect us. It's not necessarily what we do, but how we love. God sees our heart, the purity of our heart, the love which we give to others, however imperfectly, for when we surrender our worldly perfectionism to God, we allow our souls to be perfected in His unconditional and eternal love. Join us for part two, where we continue to explore the heart of perfection, with Colleen Carol Campbell as we learn more about the saints and how to build a God-inspired, Christ-led and counter-cultural haven in our homes amidst the chaos of the world that favors performance over substance. Thank you and God bless.

Co-Host: 28:26

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Sheila Nonato: 28:46

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Co-Hosts: 28:47

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