Veiling as Empowerment in the Feminine Genius of Mary: Veils by Lily CEO Lily Wilson discusses Why the tradition of veiling is making a comeback, and Why do Catholic women veil at Mass?

Happy Thanksgiving and A Blessed start to the Advent Seasons!

In this week's episode, Sheila Nonato speaks with "Veils by Lily" owner and founder, Lily Wilson, about the return of the practice of veiling among some Catholic women in church.

Let's go behind the veil as we explore the renewed tradition of veiling among Catholic women with Catholic entrepreneur and mother of seven, Lily Wilson, the visionary behind "Veils by Lily," a company that has been making and selling veils for 14 years. Lily says she has seen a remarkable increase in interest in veiling, and the independent company's sales have increased from about 30 to 900 during their busy seasons, including Advent.

Thank you, Lily, for joining Veil + Armour this week!
For more info on Veils by Lily and their Black Friday, Cyber Monday and Advent Sale, please visit:
https://veilsbylily.com

Lily joins Sheila via video interview from Missouri. Discover how this ancient practice is gaining traction once again through a blend of historical reverence and modern expression. Lily shares her personal story of embracing veiling as a means of celebrating her dignity and reverence for the divine, all while making these beautiful symbols accessible to women of all styles through her business.

Unpack the layers of meaning behind this cherished tradition and learn why it has never been about inferiority, but about the unique dignity and role of women in the tapestry of creation. As we address cultural shifts and misunderstandings, especially in the wake of Vatican II, you'll gain fresh insights into how practices like the Latin Mass and veiling are finding new life among young adults eager for deeper spiritual connections. Our conversation also highlights the symbolism found in the Song of Songs, revealing parallels between love, faith, and the sacred relationship between Christ and the Church.

Our discussion takes a personal turn with reflections on the National Eucharistic Congress, where the veil's role in spiritual life was celebrated by many. Hear inspiring stories that underline the virtues of humility and strength, embodied by Mary, Our Blessed Mother, and how these resonate in today's world. Let's dive into the conversation as we explore the growing interest in sacred practices, why veiling can be an expression of a woman's feminine identity rooted in Christ. Lily makes a compelling case that veiling is not just as a custom from the past, and how it can be a vibrant expression of faith today, for the women who choose to veil in church.

Chapter Markers:

00:00:02

Reviving the Practice of Veiling

00:05:53

Tradition and Meaning of Veiling

00:22:52

The Symbolism and Beauty of Ve

Chapters

• 0:02 Reviving the Practice of Veiling
• 5:53 Tradition and Meaning of Veiling
• 22:52 The Symbolism and Beauty of Veiling
• 37:13 Veiling and the Virtues of Women
• 43:19 Expressing Feminine Identity Through Veiling

Transcript

Sheila Nonato: 0:02

As Advent begins, we reflect upon the gift of Christmas, the gift of Jesus Christ, our Saviour. The story of the Holy Birth begins with Mary's heroic "es to become the mother of the Savior. In art, we see Mary wearing a veil a custom of Jewish brides before meeting the groom a custom of Jewish brides before meeting the groom. In our Christian tradition, the veil evokes the image of the bride embodying the countercultural values of purity, modesty and holiness. We learn in Scripture about the majestic Ark of the Covenant, made of acacia wood and covered in pure gold inside and out, built according to God's careful instructions to Moses. We also learn how the veil gracefully separates the holy place from the innermost holy of holies, the dwelling place of God on earth. How is this connected to Our Lady's veil? As Catholics, we see Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant, the living shrine of the Word of God. In the same way, she is veiled in art to showcase that she is carrying the Holy of Holies in her womb.

Sheila Nonato: 1:18

The practice of veiling in church fell out of favor in the 1960's. Yet what Catholic women used to wear before Vatican II is now making a comeback in some churches. It is not a scene from the Handmaid's Tale, but the scene of the Nativity in Bethlehem that is fueling the renewed practice. Let's hear from Lily Wilson, owner of "Veils by Lily, explain why women are choosing to veil again and how this can be part of one's spiritual armor of faith and a reflection of Mary's feminine genius. Hello and welcome to the Veil and Armor podcast. This is your host, sheila Nonato. I'm a stay-at-home mom and a freelance Catholic journalist, seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the inspiration of Our Lady, I strive to tell stories that inspire, illuminate and enrich the lives of Catholic women, to help them in living out our vocation of raising the next generation of leaders and saints.

Co-Host: 2:24

Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour podcast, where stories come alive through a journalist's lens and mother's heart.

Sheila Nonato: 2:31

So welcome Lily Wilson, owner of "Veils by Lily, and you are speaking to us from Kimswick, missouri. Is that correct? That's correct, okay, that's awesome. Thank you for joining us, and may we please start off with a prayer? Okay, okay, okay, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen, hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Well, thank you so much, lily, and I've been waiting to interview you. I've been trying to read up on veiling. This is new to me and I've seen a lot of actually young women veiling at my church. My church has both Novus Ordo and the traditional Latin Mass, but I've seen younger women doing this, adopting this kind of traditional practice, and I'm just wondering can you tell us about?

Sheila Nonato: 3:38

So, first of all, when did you start veiling?

Lily Wilson: 3:39

Well, thank you for having me first of all, and I started veiling back in. I believe it was either late 2009 or early 2010. It was something that really spoke to my heart. We were just kind of discussing it with some friends on a Yahoo email group and a friend started kind of sharing about it, and it really spoke to me. As far as you know, the church has always veiled what is sacred and you know, I felt that said something about our dignity as women, something that we often lose as we go through life because of whatever happens to us and things like that, and so it was something that I really felt like I wanted to rediscover and embrace both my own dignity as a daughter of God and also just reverence for the presence of God truly present in the Blessed Sacrament and all the mysteries. You know that we celebrate at Mass as well, so, yeah, that's wonderful, and your company.

Sheila Nonato: 4:44

When did it start? And what do you offer women who are interested in veiling at Mass?

Lily Wilson: 4:51

We started in August of 2010. So we've been in business for over 14 years now and we offer all sorts of chapel veils, infinity veils. We make some here ourselves, in our shop here, and we import some as well, from we have some Europe. We have some more affordable imports as well, and we just want to make it as accessible as possible, hoping for every woman to find a veil that really fits their unique style, their personality, and just to make it easy and convenient for women to be able to take up this practice, which has been so fruitful for myself, my relationship with God, and we've seen just so many women talk about it as well. It's really had such an impact.

Sheila Nonato: 5:44

So beautiful and on your website, if you click on a link, it'll give you a free downloadable, I guess, questionnaire. Common questions about veiling. Do you mind if we go through some of them? Absolutely Not at all. Okay, yeah, so the first one, why catholic women wear chapel veils. I think you touched upon that, but I guess, when, when you're talking about, uh, veiling something that is holy, I'm just thinking about the ark of the covenant and back to our jewish, Jewish tradition, Jewish roots, where they did do that, where the ark of the covenant was something that was so holy that they had to put a veil, just kind of not separate so much but to revere. Or maybe they did separate, but to revere, yeah, what is of God and then the people of God. Can you explain? Yeah, again, why do women specifically veil?

Lily Wilson: 6:38

So there are multiple layers of meaning to the veil and, like specific reasons, may have changed with different times, but the essence of it is something that women have done since the time of St Paul, both at prayer and during the Liturgy, and, if you find it in 1 Corinthians 11, verses 3 to 15. And so you know, there's a whole theology of the veil, but it focuses on the fact that we are in the presence of God, and when we are a prayer, a personal prayer, we're in the presence of God, but in particular in the church, because the church houses the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the Tabernacle, and that's a very particular way that God is present with us. He chose to leave us his tangible reminder of his presence in the species of bread and wine, and so that is a very, very powerful thing for our faith, because it is something that we can see, but at the same time, it requires faith to believe that it is the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and so it's always focused on the idea of this being done when in prayer and during the liturgy, and so it's something special that we do during those times, specifically and really when we go into church. It is a place unlike any other on earth. You find there the real, substantial presence of our Lord in the Eucharist, and that's something that that's a reality that is just so transcendent and at the same time so important to enter into, that the veil helps us to embrace those mysteries, to honour the presence of Jesus, to say something about who we are as women, vessels of life, both of natural life and supernatural life, and it's just a way of, I guess, how would you say it revering, I guess, the divine order established by God of the role of women in creation.

Lily Wilson: 9:05

I would say that for a long time there was a misunderstanding of the veil, where some people thought that it was a sign that women were second-class citizens, because, you know, you have God, men and women, you know, and they're lower. But it's simply a reflection of the order created by God. But it doesn't mean that our dignity is any less than men. We are all created in the image and order created by God, but it doesn't mean that our dignity is any less than men. We are all created in the image and likeness of God and women have a very unique dignity by virtue of our ability to carry both human life and supernatural life of God, because of how we are made in God's image and likeness and how he made us different from men in certain respects.

Sheila Nonato: 9:47

Yes, and when you're saying about the dignity of women, I have been reading the New Faithful. It was written maybe more than 20 years ago by Colleen Carol Campbell. She was talking about why young adults are embracing Christian orthodoxy, and this was 20 years ago. So now it seems like we're seeing the fruits of that searching, of that longing for truth and tradition and how, at this moment in our culture, I just I think it was Time Magazine that had the cover of the child-free life.

Sheila Nonato: 10:18

I think that was the cover, and it seems like, as you were saying, it's sort of right now what we're seeing is a rejection of this culture of life that we, maybe young people, are wanting to recover that aspect of their femininity instead of rejecting the purpose that God created for women. Like, not all women can have children, but they can be spiritual mothers. That's also another aspect. But yeah, I just sort of see this according to the book, that this trend that started 20 years ago is bearing fruit. And again, the Associated Press they had an article about the Latin Mass and how there were young people there and people were all surprised or astonished. What was your reaction when you saw that in the news?

Lily Wilson: 11:09

You know, I thought it just speaks of the fact that truth will never go away and you know the truth will always speak for itself, no matter how much we depart from the truth, because the truth is true. You know there will always be that seed of desire for truth in our hearts and that's going to manifest in these kinds of movements of young people flocking to tradition, to what we know deeply in our hearts is good, true and beautiful.

Sheila Nonato: 11:48

And to go back to one of the common questions. So for Catholics who attend the Novus Ordo, which is the common, what did the church say after Vatican II? Did it say to do away with the veils?

Lily Wilson: 12:01

No. So that was a misconception. I think what really happened is that people were expecting the church to say something about veils, because the culture had kind of reached this almost conclusion that veils were irrelevant, that veils didn't have anything to bring to our faith, that they were, you know, completely useless and possibly even harmful, because they believed that they were a sign that women were inferior to men and all those kinds of things. And so from that misunderstanding and it was a collective misunderstanding really people assumed that Vatican II was going to talk about veils and say that they were not required anymore. Now what actually happened is that it became kind of like fake news as we know it today. Basically, there was a press conference and a priest who was involved in Vatican II was asked if they were going to do away with the veils and he responded no, we're not discussing veils. And the press took that to mean veils were not required anymore and they published all sorts of headlines to the effect. And then the mainstream view became veils are not required anymore.

Lily Wilson: 13:25

But I think at that point many women had already stopped wearing veils and again it was based on that lack of understanding of the true meaning of the veil.

Lily Wilson: 13:35

And so, in a way, I kind of feel like you know, perhaps it was a way of waking us up to the fact that this was something that required further understanding, catechesis, to really be able to integrate it into our lives. But of course, that wouldn't come until much, much later decades later really, when women are starting to take it back up, and there have been numerous articles in the press about the Chapel veil, and so that is starting to happen. Now we're getting more widespread coverage of the meaning of the veil, why young people especially are starting to embrace it, and that's really what needed to happen. It needs to be education about the meaning of the veil, the meaning of so many devotions that we really need as human beings, because we're not just spirit, we're body and spirit, body and soul, and so what we do with our bodies really does affect what happens in our souls, and that's one of the things that the veil does.

Sheila Nonato: 14:46

And another popular question is why don't men wear veils?

Lily Wilson: 14:51

Right, and so the whole point of the veil is to make an act of humility before God. For men, that act of humility is to remove whatever they have on their heads. So if even today is seen as an act of respect to when, let's say, when you go into church, a man removes his hat, and so the specific action of humbling themselves in the presence of God is for men to remove their hats. And just going a little bit more deeply into that, you know there's a difference between the way that men and women see hair. So obviously I got my hair done for this interview today. You know, hair is a woman's glory and for men, clearly, it's not that. And in fact many men, as they grow older, they lose their hair, they become bald, and so when they reveal that baldness, you know which is, you know somewhat well, it's, I would say, humbling. You know, showing their weakness, I guess, in the presence of God, their weakness, I guess, in the presence of God. That for them is a way of humbling themselves before God. And you know, and I have even a specific story I remember, so I did, I got my hair done today, and so we're not in church, but you know it would make sense that if I were to go to Mass right now, that going to Mass would not be an opportunity to socially show off my hair.

Lily Wilson: 16:28

So covering it, you know, is an act of saying it's not about me, lord, it's about you. And I had a similar experience a few years ago when I had just gotten a haircut and I found myself like, oh, I love my new haircut and I'm so excited. Now we're going to go to Mass and all my friends are going to see it. And I'm like, " I love my new haircut and I'm so excited. Now we're going to go to mass and all my friends are going to see it. And then I'm like, wait a second, I'm going to have my hair covered because I'm going to be wearing a veil. Nobody's going to see that. But that was the whole point. It's not about me, it's about Jesus, it's about what happens at mass.

Sheila Nonato: 17:06

I've never heard it explained like that before. But yeah, that totally makes sense. And it's true, women do care about hair. Hair is it's part of our public presentation of ourselves. And, yeah, it's true, men not so much. And if you look at the prices of haircuts between men and women there's a big difference. And I think that's one of the reasons is that there is value. There's more value to a woman's appearance in public than men. And I guess what you're talking about humility.

Sheila Nonato: 17:34

And I'm going to read just a quick passage. I know this is a controversial one that is often misunderstood, and when I used to be a lector and I read this passage, I almost wanted to laugh because this was back in my feminist days. Ephesians 5, 21, be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ, and wives be subject to your husbands as to the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its savior. And when I got married I was thinking, oh, you know, I didn't want to get married before because I thought I was again in this feminist kind of mindset that I don't want to be subjugated to a man or to somebody. But as I'm reading more, learning more about my faith, I'm sort of learning to understand that I subject myself to God, and so does my husband, and he is leading our family, but he is also subject to somebody else, like God, so it's not like he's just doing whatever he wants. So that's why the whole thing about discernment is also very crucial for women to pick the right man, so the right leader for the family.

Sheila Nonato: 18:45

But yeah, so this quote was in the handout that you have. You said husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church and the bridegroom and the bride. You know, there's this imagery, this beautiful imagery, where the veil comes in and kind of completes the whole picture. Can you sort of talk about how this again the submission it's not a submission to self or to a person, but it is a submission to God, and how that is actually part of our faith and part of how we sort of nourish and sustain our faith, is that we focus. When we have the veil, we are focusing our attention or having other people focus their attention to God and not to ourselves. Can you sort of talk a little bit about that?

Lily Wilson: 19:52

What's coming to mind right now is the whole idea of thy will be done, of letting go of our own will to assent to God's will. God's will is always for our good. God is not this either distant God or demanding God? And it's so important for us to be clear on who God really is, the fact that God's heart is to redeem and restore and bring light and love into our lives. That's who God is. And so, when we look at it from that perspective, who doesn't want to submit themselves, to let go of their own will and open ourselves up to the will of such a loving, loving God? And so, in that sense, that veil is a way of saying not my will but your will, Lord, I surrender myself to you. And in the same way, you know, god created man and woman in that order, and it is, you know, god is a God of order. When we have order in our lives, we're able to flourish. Order in our lives, we're able to flourish. And you know even, you know, companies have leadership, and there is, you know, the military governments. There is an order to things, and when things are in order, we're able to really become who we are meant to be. And so that kind of that order established by God, of God, man, woman. It's not there to make our lives miserable or say that we're less than no. It's meant for our good, for us to flourish as human beings, in our full humanity, but also in our identity as children of God. And so that's where you see that veil in the marriage ceremony, because men are representative of Christ.

Lily Wilson: 21:52

And so in another passage, St. Paul says husbands, "ove your wives as Christ loved the church. And what did Christ do? He died for her. And what did Christ do? He died for her. And so who wouldn't submit to someone who would just die for you? Isn't that what like? As women, we just that's what we want. We want somebody to die for us. We want to receive that kind of love. Jesus died for us, but then our husbands are called to die for us as well, and in turn we are asked to honor that sacred order and we're asked to let go of our own will for the will of God, for holiness, for sanctity, and to bring God's love into the world through our very bodies, both physically and spiritually. So it's just a beautiful thing.

Lily Wilson: 22:52

And the last thing I want to say specifically about the wedding imagery is that this is something that is in the Song of Songs, and, as you mentioned what you read, that the relationship between man and woman, like husband and wife, is an image of the relationship between Christ and the church, as we said.

Lily Wilson: 23:16

So men are representative of Christ and women are representative of the church, a representative of the church. But also it's a mirror of the relationship between God and the soul, to where, you know, god gives and the soul receives, and then, when the soul receives, the soul is led to give back to God, and then it becomes this exchange of love of giving and receiving, and that is how we become who we are truly meant to be, because then you know, in the same way that the relationship between God and the soul is meant to be, you know the nature of receiving, giving and receiving. If you really think about it, that's what happens between the father and the son. The father gives himself completely to the son, the son gives himself back to the Father, and that exchange of love is the Holy Spirit and it brings life, and so that's really what we're meant to do, how we're meant to become who we are meant to be. So it's just, it's a beautiful, beautiful thing.

Sheila Nonato: 24:23

Absolutely. And yeah, I just got tears on my eyes because I just started, when you're talking about the self-giving love, like that's that's what my husband does every day, that's what my dad had been doing, that you know. Yeah, that's, that's really beautiful. That's what Our Lord did for us. Yes, and I'm getting emotional again just because of how beautiful that message is, and I think that message gets drowned out in the world because, you know, we are supposed to be self-made women. We don't need anybody yeah, we don't need anyone to save us, have seven kids.

Lily Wilson: 24:55

One is away at college and our youngest is almost three and it is exhausting. He works all day and then he helps me so much. I mean, he's there for the family, he helps get the kids ready for bed, and I could see it in him. His eyes were closing, but here he is being kind and patient. His eyes were closing, but here he is being kind and patient, our loving to a very demanding almost three-year-old. And he's doing it with just gentleness and patience and I see his eyes just falling and I'm just in awe. This man is dying for us, you know, and it was just such a beautiful moment and my heart was just exploding with gratitude and it made me think of this man is being Christ to all of us and dying on the cross for us, absolutely.

Sheila Nonato: 25:56

And you were also at the Eucharistic Congress, the National Eucharistic Congress in Indianapolis. Yes, and that was also another. When I saw the pictures and I was reading the articles again, heartstrings were being tugged because I was seeing, as you were saying, a return to truth or the search for truth. Anyway, what was your experience there and how did people receive the veil?

Lily Wilson: 26:23

Oh, my goodness, I could talk for hours about this. It was such a grace-filled few days. We met so many of our longtime customers who came to us and expressed their gratitude for what we're doing because the veil has had such a deep impact in their spiritual lives, in their call to let go of their own will and just the beautiful fruits that that has brought for them the peace, the serenity, the peace, the serenity, the joy. And you know, it was really interesting because my daughters I have four daughters and three boys my daughters were all there helping me at my booth and they got a chance to witness all those conversations with all these women and they were blown away. So I have not been one to like make them wear a veil at Mass, but just from them witnessing those conversations, they decided they wanted to wear a veil at Mass and a couple of them have been doing it. The other two, I think, kind of like they kind of left it. They're younger and they forget it and that kind of thing. But it really made an impact on them.

Lily Wilson: 27:47

You know what they heard and it was just so beautiful to meet the women that we have been corresponding with, that we've been serving this whole entire time and it was amazing that's not even to say all the graces that I received from just, you know, going to the talks in the evening, because the booths were closed when the main sessions were going on in the evening, so we were able to go to those and those were just phenomenal and I received very specific graces from that as well. So I am just so grateful for the whole Eucharistic Congress and just to be a part of it was amazing. Was it your first time? My first time at a Eucharistic Congress, something like that. Yeah, yes, especially that big. Yes, we were very, very busy. We did not expect to have so many women come visit our booths. It was nonstop and women were just hungry for this, just really hungry and really embracing it, and it was beautiful to see.

Sheila Nonato: 28:50

And was it different ages? Who was coming and what were their questions? What were they interested in finding out?

Lily Wilson: 28:58

So I would say that most women had already heard about this and heard the meaning. Those who didn't picked up our little information cards and they read it and they were like, oh wow, this is really beautiful. But we really had. We had all ages, we had moms and little girls, we had husbands buying for their wives, we had older women buying for their whole families. There was this one particular encounter with some ladies and they were like I'm going to buy this for so-and-so and I'm going to buy this one for so-and-so and this one for so-and-so, and we were very, very well received. So it was beautiful.

Sheila Nonato: 29:40

That's awesome, and do you have any veils to show, or so you can explain to us or I? I have mine, but it's not the greatest. I I'm actually looking saving up to get one of yours, but I don't know if you have any on hand or we could just talk about it. You know, I've had mine and I know this to me, um, before before we.

Lily Wilson: 30:01

We talked this morning, but it slipped my mind, so I had thought to bring a specific one that I wanted to show. But here is the veil that I've been wearing. This is the soft floral lace infinity veil, and so I usually wear it around my neck and it comp compliments my outfit, which is really nice outside of church, but then when I go into church I slip it over my head it covers my beautifully done hair that is not there to show off, and I have a little clip up here that snaps open up close and it helps to hold it in place to where I don't have to worry about it.

Lily Wilson: 30:53

And there it is and it just, you know it blends in with my hair. I always wear mostly wear black. I like my hair blending in because it doesn't feel like I'm, you know, standing out. But other women have other preferences and it's totally fine, you know what? But this is what I'm comfortable with and so this is what I wear Now.

Lily Wilson: 31:12

For the longest time I would wear a triangle veil, so not a loop, which is the infinity veil, and but I but I gave it away to a friend and then I couldn't find another one. I found a rectangle veil which can be kind of like a wrap, and I wrapped it around myself and it was really interesting because it was almost as if I could feel the arms of the Father wrapped around me. And then I decided it was a blue veil, because that's what I found at home and I'm not big on colors, I like black. So I came here to our store to pick out a new veil and I found this black one, which was great and it was an infinity. It goes around and it was perfect because it also, you know, gives me that sense of the arms of the father around me, you know, as his beloved daughter, and it just, you know, it stuck. So now I'm an infinity veil girl, even though, you know, I never saw myself using these kinds of veils. But here I am.

Sheila Nonato: 32:19

Yes, it's beautiful and you don't have to worry about it falling. Mine is, to be honest, I went to this craft store and it was the end piece and basically I have to like secure it. So I, like I said I am saving up for one of your veils but like, yeah, it's like an end piece that I put on my head and it does fall off sometimes, but anyway, but like there are different lengths you mentioned right, Like the chapel veil goes to your shoulders.

Lily Wilson: 32:45

So a chapel veil is just any covering for church, like as we saw in the Old Testament. The veil of the temple was not lace, it was actually several inches thick, and so a veil is technically a covering, and so a chapel veil would be just anything that covers. Now there are some that are longer, some are shorter. This one is the infinity style. Then we have like triangles, wraps, you know rectangles, and so you can call them chapel veils. Some people call them mantillas. We call this one an infinity veil and typically the triangles we call them mantillas. And that comes from Spain. Spain has a very long tradition of producing lace mantillas for women.

Sheila Nonato: 33:37

And for somebody who has never worn a veil, what would be? Does it matter what they start with? What should they be looking for?

Lily Wilson: 33:45

So it's really something that they are comfortable with, and so if they want to match their hair color, I would say go with that. If you're drawn to match an outfit, go with that. If you want to match your complexion and you know some cool tones, warm tones, you're welcome to do that as well. It used to be that older women would wear darker colors or black to church and younger women would wear lighter colors or white. Nowadays, it's not so much the case. Everybody is wearing what just fits their personality, their own style, the best. But I would say that the most important thing is just to be comfortable in it, and one of the things that women do like about the infinity veil is that it can be worn as part of their outfit, after mass, as a scarf, and it just kind of blends in and it doesn't make a fuss, you know. So it's very versatile.

Sheila Nonato: 34:45

Okay, beautiful. And does it also matter if it's lace or not?

Lily Wilson: 34:51

It does not matter whether it's lace or not, as long as it's a covering. That's the whole point is to cover.

Sheila Nonato: 35:00

And I guess you were mentioning earlier. So traditionally it used to be um darker colors for married women. Is that correct?

Lily Wilson: 35:07

Yes, black specifically does it matter specifically?

Sheila Nonato: 35:11

Yes, that's in tradition and white is for single women. Is that correct?

Lily Wilson: 35:15

for single women or younger women.

Sheila Nonato: 35:18

Okay. So for children my child, where did her veil go? It's white with some blue trim. Like is it okay that it has the blue trim? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely Okay.

Lily Wilson: 35:31

Yeah, and I think you know in some places where there are specific traditions of what you should do, you know you'll kind of get a sense for it when you look around at church, but you'll also notice you know married women wearing white as well, and I've seen little girls wearing black, you know. So it's not so much the color as it is just the act of reverence and humility and acknowledgement of God's presence.

Sheila Nonato: 35:57

Okay, that's beautiful. So another question on the common questions is what about hats or other types of head coverings? Is that okay or so?

Lily Wilson: 36:07

I think that hats are okay in the sense that they're a you know they're, they still are a symbolic, symbolic way of having something over your head. But I have seen some comment commentaries that say that the purpose of the covering is to cover the woman's hair, so that's not on full on display. The hair is the woman's glory and so a hat is suitable. But it may not be the best way to kind of convey that reverence by hiding oneself and again, it's not hiding out of shame or negativity or anything like that, it's just, you know, as an act of reverence and humility, to say that you know it's about God and not about us.

Sheila Nonato: 36:56

Okay, and I don't know if you've seen the trailer there's a new Netflix movie about Mother Mary it's just called, I think, Mary, and so we in our I guess our history, we see Mother Mary veiled as was customary and how. What is the link to Our Lady and the veiling and how we are? We're imitating her in, in a sense, when we also do that at Mass.

Lily Wilson: 37:21

Right, and I think the essence of that is what Mary said at the Annunciation Thy will be done. It goes in direct contrast to the original sin of Adam and Eve, of the sin of the fallen angels who said I will not serve. And it's really about letting go of our own will and embracing God's will, which Mary did so faithfully. She embraced her God-given dignity, her vocation in life, and we are called to do the same. And so, yeah, the veil says you know, I am the servant of the Lord. Be it done unto me according to thy will. And I think that that conveys that particular sentiment very, very well, and we definitely want to imitate our mother. We know that that's the path to true happiness, both in this life and the life to come, and so we're encouraged to embrace that.

Sheila Nonato: 38:17

Yes, absolutely. And I asked my husband what question would you ask if you were able to interview Lily and ask her? And his question was he says we have to teach people how to treat us. And how does wearing a veil teach men how to treat women?

Lily Wilson: 38:35

That is a great question and I think this is something that when a man sees a woman wearing a veil, intuitively they understand that this woman is not to be objectified, that she knows her true worth and she's going to claim that for herself in her life and in her relationships. So I think it just conveys that very, very well and men understand that. And I think you know, yes, there has been a need for education on the veil, but I think that people in general, when they see a woman wearing a veil, they, deep down in their hearts, they know what it's for, they know it's an act of reverence, they know that it highlights an act of reverence, they know that it highlights the dignity of the woman, and those are all things that are really very needed in our culture today, because so much of that has been lost and we need to claim it back for ourselves.

Sheila Nonato: 39:35

And his second question is related to what you just said how does failing teach our young girls to become strong women?

Lily Wilson: 39:43

Yeah, so it makes me think of the strength of Mary, that hers was quiet strength, that, by her humility, is how she crushed the head of the serpent. And so our humility is going to be our strength, is going to be our weapon against evil in the world. So you don't fight evil with evil. You fight evil with goodness, with truth, with beauty, with kindness, gentleness, self-control, all the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, and that's our true strength. Our strength is in the Lord, and that is where it is to be found and nowhere else really.

Sheila Nonato: 40:27

And finally, have you seen you were mentioning at the Eucharistic Congress there were a lot of women interested in knowing or purchasing a veil. Have you seen increased interest over the 14 years in your business?

Lily Wilson: 40:37

Oh my goodness, yes, yes, an incredible increase. We started out shipping about 30 to 60 orders when I was doing it out of the corner of my kitchen and now we're averaging around 900 orders a month, including our busy seasons, you know. So it goes up and down depending on the season, but our average is about 900 orders and it's just really beautiful to see. It's really amazing and definitely a gift for us here as well, and all the ladies who work here, because it's been just a real gift for us to be able to serve in this way.

Sheila Nonato: 41:13

And is Advent one of the busy seasons? Do you see sort of an uptick? Absolutely.

Lily Wilson: 41:17

Yes, yes, just leading up to Christmas, some women like to honor the season by wearing a purple veil. It's just a way of participating more fully with the liturgical year.

Sheila Nonato: 41:33

And can you direct us if somebody listening a Catholic woman is listening right now and interested in exploring the veil, where can they find you?

Lily Wilson: 41:44

We are at veilsbylilycom, and that's L-I-L-Y one L in the middle?

Sheila Nonato: 41:51

Amazing, and was there anything else that you wanted to add that I might have missed?

Lily Wilson: 41:56

Oh, just thank you for for having me. It's a joy to be able to speak of all these things, because it's made such a difference in my own life and in the lives of other women as well, and so it's been a joy thank you and god bless you and your ministry and your family and your business and I I really I have been looking forward to speaking with you.

Sheila Nonato: 42:17

So. So I was just telling my husband oh, guess what, stop me to tomorrow. So I really appreciate your time and your witness and giving us all this information so that we can explore for ourselves whether this is something for us.

Sheila Nonato: 42:30

So Black Friday is coming up and Advent season we're trying to prepare ourselves interiorly as well, and also all the things that go with preparations for Advent. What do you have for women for Black Friday? Is there anything coming up with your shop?

Lily Wilson: 42:47

Yes, we are going to have an unprecedented 20% off. We do try to keep our prices as low as possible, so it's hard for us to discount very much, but we I don't think we've ever done 20% off your order and that's what we're going to offer from Black Friday through Cyber Monday, and we are also going to have a little 12 days of Christmas sale, from the 1st of December to the 12th, with different items from our store.

Sheila Nonato: 43:19

Wonderful. Thank you very much again, Lily Thank you have a great day. Take care you too. Thank you so much. Bye-bye.

Sheila Nonato: 43:26

Thank you to Lily Wilson for giving us a glimpse into why women are starting to veil again at Mass and how they see it as a way of expressing their feminine identity in Christ and an expression of their newfound freedom and confidence in this identity as daughters of God. On this Thanksgiving weekend and the beginning of Advent, we would like to express our sincerest thank you to each and every one of you, our subscribers and listeners, for helping us to reach the top five of Good Pod's chart in the categories of Motherhood and Top Catholic podcasts, which we are humbled and honoured to be on the same podcast list as Fr Mike Schmitz and Bishop Barron. We pray that each and every one of you has a blessed Advent and Holy Christmas. Thank you, and listening to the Veil and Armour podcast.

Co-Host: 44:34

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