17. Teaching Christian Virtues and Saintly Resilience to Our Children with Jacqueline Clovis

How to become like saints through virtue, patience and resilience with Jacqueline Clovis, Founder of Determined to Achieve

Can virtues like generosity and forgiveness truly transform your mental health and personal development? Join us as we welcome Jacqueline Clovis, a Catholic mindset coach and CEO of Determined to Achieve, who offers a refreshing perspective on merging psychology with the Catholic faith. Jacqueline takes inspiration from Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning" and elaborates on the significance of purpose and character education in schools. We dive deeply into practical tips for parents aiming to instill and model virtues, providing a roadmap to help children grow into future leaders and saints.

Curious about how to make virtues engaging for children? Jacqueline shares innovative methods, like a game designed to teach kids about virtues and faith in a fun, interactive way called the "Journey to Jesus" board game. We also discuss the delicate balance between reward and intrinsic motivation, helping children appreciate the value of their actions beyond immediate gratification. The episode underscores the importance of emotional regulation and resilience, with Jacqueline providing insights on how virtues like discipline and temperance can lead to personal success and long-term achievements.

Parenting isn't just about guiding children through their growth; it's about modeling the behaviour you wish to see. In this episode, we highlight the significance of parents' actions and consistency, especially during summer when family interaction is high (the interview was recorded on July 8, 2024). Jacqueline offers practical advice on how to incorporate virtues into daily activities like chores and family tasks, fostering a loving environment where virtues can naturally thrive. We cap off the episode with a look at how small, everyday sacrifices can serve as powerful lessons in Christian virtue, setting the stage for our next discussion with Sister Helela Burns on the Feminine Genius and parenthood. Tune in for an enriching conversation that blends faith, psychology, and practical parenting.

Connect with Jacqueline Clovis:
https://www.instagram.com/@determinedtothrive_
https://determinedtoachieve.co.uk

Connect with Sheila:
- Instagram
- X / Twitter
- Website
https://veilandarmour.com
Email: veilandarmour@gmail.com

Thank you to our listeners from Australia, Belarus, Canada, Côte d'Ivoire, Ghana, Guam, Hawaii, Ireland, Mexico, Netherlands, Philippines, North Macedonia, South Africa, Sweden and the United Kingdom, the United States. We sincerely appreciate each and everyone of you! If you like our show, please feel free to give us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever. you listen to our podcast! Please feel free to comment on YouTube, share, like and subscribe! This is how our show will grow to reach more Catholic mothers and families who can benefit from our message of hope and empowerment through the Feminine Genius and courageous Chris

Chapters

• 0:04 Catholic Mindset Coaching and Virtue Education
• 12:19 Teaching Virtue and Love
• 18:17 Cultivating Virtue and Delaying Gratification
• 23:23 Teaching Emotional Regulation in Children
• 27:14 Modeling Virtue Through Family Life
• 36:53 Balancing Reward and Intrinsic Motivation
• 43:21 Fostering Growth Mindset in Children
• 55:43 Modeling Sacrifice and Self-Regulation

Transcript

Sheila Nonato: 0:04

Hello and Welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast. This is your host, Sheila Nonato. I'm a stay-at-home mom and a freelance Catholic journalist, Seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the inspiration of Our Lady. I strive to tell stories that inspire, illuminate and enrich the lives of Catholic women, to help them in living out our vocation of raising the next generation of leaders and saints.

Co-host: 0:27

Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour podcast, where stories come alive through a journalist's lens and mother's heart.

Sheila Nonato: 0:35

Hello Sisters in Christ! Welcome to the Veil and Armour podcast. This week we have Jacqueline Clovis, a Catholic mindset coach and CEO of Determined to Achieve in the UK. As it is back to school season and parent-teacher interviews will be coming up in a couple of months or so, one question you may want to ask your child's teacher is if character education is part of the school's curriculum and focus. Character education is related to the practice of virtue. How do we instill and model these virtues for our children? Jacqueline will start off the conversation by revealing how she was intrigued to look at the intersection of faith and psychology after reading the book by Holocaust survivor Viktor Frankl called "Man's Search for Meaning. Let's listen to Jacqueline. Give us some tips on teaching virtue to our children so they can grow up to become leaders and saints.

Jacqueline Clovis: 1:23

In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Come, Holy Spirit. Enlighten our intellects and strengthen our wills. Give us the grace to do your will. Our Lady Seat of Wisdom, Pray for us. In the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, amen, amen.

Sheila Nonato: 1:42

Thank you very much, and I'm just going to introduce our guest today. Jacqueline Clovis is the founder of Determined to Achieve. She is a certified life coach. She studied psychology and has spent the past decade researching human personalities, behavior and the mind, with a special interest in motivational psychology and human happiness. Having worked with nursery-aged children for the past 10 years, she has observed the effects of family life and family values on child development and offers workshops and one-to-one childhood consulting to help parents support their young children. She is particularly skilled at helping young children reach their developmental milestones. She's also passionate about helping adults thrive. So, drawing from her experience and research, she offers workshops, talks and one-on-one coaching. Using a Christian perspective, she helps adults discover their unique purpose, transform their mindsets and unlock their potential so that they can live an authentic, joyful and fulfilling life. Welcome, Jacqueline, from Kent in England. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so first off, yeah, we want to know about you.

Sheila Nonato: 3:02

How did you get into Catholic mindset coaching?

Jacqueline Clovis: 3:04

Yes, so I studied psychology and I always felt like there was more. I just felt like all the theories were incomplete. And somebody gave me the book "Man's Search for Meaning and when I read it it was just talking about the power of purpose and it was written by Victor Franco, who was in the concentration camps, and he observed that him and other people who were able to survive in the concentration camps were people that had a strong sense of purpose, they were praying or they were like thinking about their families. So that kind of sparks my interest. Because I was just thinking about how powerful purpose is and I just felt like why has? Why didn't anybody say this?

Jacqueline Clovis: 3:48

You know, while I was studying, and so I read, I also read a book about mental health and it was just talking about you know how a mentally healthy person should have high ethical standards, should be generous, should be somebody who forgives, and I was just thinking to myself like you know what these are virtues you know and for. So that sparked this interest and I always saw I wanted to be a life coach, because I love motivating people and helping people unlock their full potential. But I didn't. I started, I thought about it and then I didn't have the courage to do it because people just kept telling me different things like um no, you know, when you're doing psychology, you cannot mention God and things like that.

Jacqueline Clovis: 4:34

But I was just like I really want to do this, I really love you know, just looking at the mind and human behavior.

Jacqueline Clovis: 4:42

But I want to do it in a Catholic way, in a Christian way, and it took me a long time to actually set up my own business and actually like get certified as a life coach and just say, yes, this is what I'm doing. Even if it's just one person that understands what I'm trying to say and understands why virtue is important, and understand I don't mind, like I just have to do this because it's just a passion, it's just something that won't go away. I mean, I've heard someone say that dreams are just these desires that just won't go away, and that's how it was for me. I just always felt like I really want to do this, I really want to motivate people, I really want to help people unlock their potential. And also, when I worked in like nurseries, I just saw this whole concept of, like you know, the children's potential and how sometimes it gets missed, and I just felt like I need something where I can just focus on helping them unlock their potential without restriction.

Sheila Nonato: 5:39

So, yeah, awesome and you. In one of your podcasts you were mentioning how you study psychology and how psychology, how the catholic faith completes psychology. Can you explain a little bit?

Jacqueline Clovis: 5:53

Yes, so we in psychology, the main aim is to understand, you know, human behaviour and in order for us to be able to control and predict it. And I feel like when we look at all the theories out there, there is always this concept of okay. For example, when they say they talk about motivation and they just say, okay, we're either motivated by the desire to avoid pain or to move towards pleasure, by the desire to avoid pain or to move towards pleasure. And there was a time where someone did some work with the dolphins and she realized that dolphins were not reacting the same way. It wasn't just about pleasure and pain. And she had to change her style and think about okay, I have to create a pattern where the dolphin knows when I'm going to give this fish and when it's going to jump.

Jacqueline Clovis: 6:50

And so for me, I just felt like there was always just something incomplete. I was looking at, like, for example, sigmund, for it just talking about oh, man just wants pleasure. And I just felt that is just not enough. Like how do you explain Viktor Frankl and these other people surviving in concentration camps if it's just all about pleasure? And there was no pleasure. They were suffering and they had. There was something else. Well, you know, I guess the faith in the way of saying like, oh, you know, we should give everybody positive, unconditional positive regard and things like that, but it's just still incomplete, because they just say you can determine your happiness or you is just about you. So I just felt like there was just nothing completely saying the full picture.

Jacqueline Clovis: 7:44

And when I myself went through a point in my life where I didn't get what I wanted and I felt so sad and down and I just felt like, oh, I already have, I have faith, and I felt like I believe and I've believed. Like you know, when they say believe, just believe, and it's like, but I just believe. And then I just realized that there is also the will of God in all these things. And there was a point where I just said, okay, lord, I accept your will. And the moment I said that, I just felt peace in my heart and it was so clear to me that, wow, this was actually the obstacle for me, this was what was keeping me from being happy, me fighting with you, what the will of God was for me. And I just felt so much peace and I remember even calling my sister and just saying I feel so much peace right now and ever since then it made me realize that some people who are struggling with depression or even different mental illnesses where they're feeling low mood, it might actually be them resisting the will of God in their life or it might actually be spiritual, because for me I felt it was, and so I just really want to help those people in that category who might actually be struggling with their mindset, might actually just be in the way or they're struggling with the will of God in their lives or they're going through difficulty and they feel hopeless.

Jacqueline Clovis: 9:05

So just helping people on that path and I've just noticed, like for Catholics, there is a range. There is either some people would have a lot of faith but not want to do anything, because it just feels like, oh, I already have faith and I don't have to do anything, and then some people would want to do everything on their own and forget that we have to work with God. And so I always think about Saint Augustine's uh, saint Augustine's book, where he says that we should pray, as if without prayer we can't get what we want, and we should work, as if without working we can't get what we want. So that always helps me balance myself when I'm tilting to one side or the other, and so that's why I think it's strongly linked, because when you have peace of mind, I think you're able to pray better and able to concentrate and able to carry out your God-giving purpose and also the whole aim. What they're trying to do is also, at end of the day, understand human behavior, and the faith actually explains it in in totality.

Jacqueline Clovis: 10:08

When you look at the works of Thomas Aquinas, or even then Francis de Sales, or then Alphonsus Liguori, some of their writings really talk about human desires, how to live a virtuous life, and it's so beautiful because one thing about virtue is that it's the, it's the balance between two extremes. So if, for example, courage, the balance between being fearful, timid and being rash, so it's just that balance, and so when you have that balance, you are happier. Even ancient philosophers have spoken about this, that when you they they spoke about the four cardinal virtues. They always spoke about temperance, prudence, wisdom and justice, because they, just by using their logic, they could see that this is actually, you know, this actually brings us happiness, and so I feel like the faith actually has everything.

Jacqueline Clovis: 11:06

The faith draws us to virtue and then the grace of God as well, giving us that peace and direction and God wants the best for us and loves us so much and just knowing that, wow, there's someone out there that loves me unconditionally.

Jacqueline Clovis: 11:22

There was one time I came across this page and it's all about positivity and I was really happy because I love positivity, and on the page it had this thing, this quote, saying there's somebody out there that loves you, and I just felt like, wow, that just feels. It feels nice to say that, but it's still not as complete as the saying Jesus loves you and loves you unconditionally. I can actually say I know this person and it's God and he loves me unconditionally and, yes, so that's how it just ties in. I think they just flow into each other. When you're trying to, you know, be healthy, mentally healthy and have a good spiritual life very deep into your life, you just realize that everything just flows. So I feel like they work together. We are mind, body and soul and we have to bring everything together and work in harmony, and the faith helps us do that.

Sheila Nonato: 12:19

And when you mentioned positivity, you mentioned Viktor Frankl and "Man's Search for Meaning. So he is a survivor of the Holocaust, correct? What can we learn from him, from his book about positivity, living a virtuous life and faith? How can we apply that to mothers, to family life, to children?

Jacqueline Clovis: 12:43

Yeah, everyday life. So I'll say it's all about finding meaning in everything that we do and just that sense of purpose in everything that we do. And our faith helps us in a very big way because it tells us that, okay, if you're a mom, your purpose is, you know, being a good wife, being a good mother. If you are searching, your purpose at that point is to be open to the will of God, find out what God is asking you. But ultimately we have this general purpose to love, to love God and neighbor. And when Jesus was asked what is the greatest commandment, he said love God with all your whole heart, with all your whole mind. Love your neighbor as yourself. So that gives us a general purpose. And I think St Therese of Lisieux says my vocation is to love. So that gives us this general purpose, that even when you're not sure what is going on, you can just say okay, how am I loving today, how am I loving God and neighbour today? And that really love has pulled people through all sorts of things. I think is the strongest motivating factor. So when you think about victor franco and people that survive, is that okay? We're praying to god, that hope god loves me. So, even if I'm in a devastating situation, I'm going to still pray, and just the love also for their family, thinking, okay, I have to survive for my family. And so it's coming back to love as the strongest motivating factor.

Jacqueline Clovis: 14:17

Also, there is a book called "e Leadeth Me where it's about a police priest also in a camp as well, where he had to struggle to survive and sometimes he would still find a way to do the math secretly. And it was still the same concept of love. Love was what was sustaining him, even in the difficulty of the prison, and it was just so beautiful and it just showed me again that ultimately, love is the greatest motivating factor. It's the greatest way to live your life. If you really want to live a fulfilling life, you should be, like, always thinking about love. How am I loving God? How am I loving neighbor?

Sheila Nonato: 15:05

You know, and yeah, that's what I would say love yes, and love stems from, or goes hand in hand with, virtue. How do we teach virtue to our children?

Jacqueline Clovis: 15:19

Yes, it's, yeah, it's very interesting. What I find is that children have a tendency towards a certain virtue and might. So I feel the first thing is to observe the child and see where they are and slowly introduce it in, you know, in everyday life. So, for example, when I've worked with little children, I will see that some have the tendency to want to share. You know they're kind, they have a toy, another child wants that toy and they want to share, and some just don't. And you have to be there to encourage them and say, okay, would you like to share with your friend? She's waiting really nicely. And so it's just you yourself really being there to guide them, inspire them and just notice what they need. You know, because I feel that it's so effective when you actually teach them when they need it, especially because I think it's good to have general rules about virtue in the home and I also think it's good to have like one-on-one time where you're actually supporting the child individually to develop the virtue they need. Because sometimes you also find, like some children, for example, might have the tendency towards kindness but they might not have enough courage to speak up for themselves and they might feel, okay, I'm being kind and I don't know how to say no to this other child, and you have to be there for them, to encourage them. That kindness is good, you're right when you're kind, but sometimes you have to say no, and that is good. It's virtuous as well to know when to say no. So I feel like incorporating it in is very good, and I think it's also a good idea to actually talk about virtue in the room, maybe during the dinner time, or just bring it up in conversation, because I think there's just not enough talk about virtue.

Jacqueline Clovis: 17:19

And this also inspired me to make a game called " jesus, where I just, you know, teach children about virtues and the faith. So it's basically very similar to snakes and ladders, where things you know take you up and down. So good things take you up in this game and bad things take you down. So, for example, "rude to parents will take you down, gluttony takes you down, being helpful will take you up, and the whole aim is to get to Jesus and so that way that they're having that conversation. Oh what, what is? Why is gluttony bad? What is gluttony and things like that? And then in the game there is um dying immortals, and you don't want that one, because you go out of the game and then you have, um, you have, yeah, at the end getting to Jesus, like just thinking about, yes, I want to be ultimately, I want to be good so that I can be pleasing to God.

Jacqueline Clovis: 18:17

And also it's amazing how the way God made us is in is in. It's such an amazing thing because thing because he calls us to this life of holiness and life of virtue, and then he still rewards us for doing it. So there's still that reward you get, even in life, just for being a virtuous person. People can trust you, people can rely on you. You know you feel that peace in on you. You know you are, you feel that peace in you because you know, oh, I'm not lying, I'm an honest person, you know. So you just get all these rewards. And also virtue also leads you to being successful in whatever you're doing. You can achieve whatever you set your mind to because you have that virtue of discipline you are, you have that virtue of temperance. It helps you achieve the aims you have set for yourself. So, yes, I think also making it fun. So that's why the game is here as well, to make you fun and because it's you have to go against our nature. So that's where the difficulty is. So it's so important to make it fun, make it a discussion, make it something that they get used to hearing about.

Jacqueline Clovis: 19:29

And in the secondary school I went to, we always had the virtue of the month, and every month we'll talk about that virtue and talk about how we can um, you know, instill that virtue or incorporate it into our learning. For example, there was a month that we had order, and so we, when we go back to the classroom, we would be asked to come up with ways we can show order in our everyday life. And so we'll be. We'll come up with things like oh, a virtuous girl, like an orderly girl, has her locker tidy. An orderly girl makes sure her uniform is tidy. You know all these kinds of things, and so that way you're looking at ways of incorporating it in and practical ways. How does it look like what? How does it look like when I'm orderly? How does it look like when I'm honest? How does it look like when I am practicing the virtue of temperance? So I think incorporating it into everyday life and having that conversation would make it part of everyday life.

Sheila Nonato: 20:33

What would you say would be are there such things as the top, let's say the top three virtues for children Like what? Or is there such a thing, an easy virtue to teach children?

Co-host: 20:47

to learn.

Jacqueline Clovis: 20:48

Okay. So I think I think one of the most important things that you can start from a very early age is teaching them how to, I guess, practice that sense of delaying gratification. So I think delaying gratification is a very big thing. With the growth mindset, it's always talking about you know being able to learn and love learning, and so I'm always trying to encourage people to adopt a growth mindset and help their children cultivate the growth mindset. So, for example, praising the efforts they put in and not just saying, okay, you completed your homework, that's been well done, but what about? I like the way you put efforts and you persevered until you completed your homework. So encourage those behaviors and I feel like delaying gratification if you can just say, okay, you want this toy, for example, now, but it's time to have dinner, you can have it after dinner. And there's there's just a lot of research showing that when children can delay their gratification, it helps them, you know, succeed later on in life.

Jacqueline Clovis: 22:05

So there was actually a study done on what is called the marshmallow test, where children were given. There were two groups of children. The first group of children they were given marshmallows and and they were just marshmallows placed in front of them and the adult will leave the room. Just like what we see sometimes online there this test where they put sweets in front of the child and leave the room and they, but before they leave the room, they give the instruction saying don't take it until I come back. And the first group they say don't, they don't touch it until we come back. The marshmallows are there, when we come back you can have. And then they leave the room. And then the second group of children they say the same thing don't touch it.

Jacqueline Clovis: 22:49

And they found that the children that actually you know, went for the marshmallows even if they had been told not to take it, like they watched them and observed them over, you know, as they were growing up, looked at how they were successful in the future, and they found that the children who couldn't delay gratification struggled more later on in life, unlike the children who were able to delay gratification. So those who were able to delay gratification were able to be successful later on in life, were able to persevere later on in life. So I feel that that one one thing to start with, and just that sense that, yeah, holding back, waiting your turn, sharing, you know, turn taking. We help them start learning to control their, their yeah, control themselves, and that's in that way I see.

Sheila Nonato: 23:41

So it's kind of like teaching them in a child's way the meaning of sacrifice, and this helps them. Yeah, so it helps them to build. Is it emotional maturity? What? What does this teach them?

Jacqueline Clovis: 23:59

So it teaches them how to yeah, emotional maturity, I would say, teaches them how to control their emotions in such a way that, ok, I need to stop and wait. And it's interesting because I am going to be giving an emotional regulation workshop. Emotional regulation workshop it will be starting on the 22nd, so I'm going to be talking about how adults can help children regulate their emotion, because they need adults. And there was a video I watched where the father told his daughter not to have chocolate and then he let that he placed in front of her just similar to the marshmallow study and he just left it in front of her and told her not to have it. And then he left the room and while she was thinking about what she was going to do with this chocolate ... " I'm a good girl, it's's fine, like I can wait. And then she was, like you know, fiddling around a bit and she was like, okay, and she was like, okay, I'm going to wait. And then she was able to talk to herself until her dad came back and then she had the chocolate.

Jacqueline Clovis: 25:17

And when we were just analyzing the video, it was clear that it was she was saying what her Dad would say to her. It was what her father would say to her, that she was saying to herself. And so the parent or the adult becomes the child's voice, and the voice they also use to control their emotions. So she was able to say okay, because what her dad would say to her, "you're able to do this. It's fine, wait for daddy. And that's what she was saying to herself. And so it's so important, the words we say to children. It's so important because that's how they're going to regulate themselves. They're going to use the words you teach them to regulate themselves.

Sheila Nonato: 26:18

Friends, Jacqueline Clovis is running a seven-day challenge to boost resilience. It's running from the 22nd of September to the 28th of September. It's running from the 22nd of September to the 28th of September and there's also going to be a resilience webinar at 5 pm GMT on the 28th of September and you can check out more details on.

Sheila Nonato: 26:41

Instagram when you're talking about saying the words explaining having a conversation at the dinner table, one of the things and you know I'm definitely not a perfect parent, so one of the things, one of the times my children will say, Mom, you said not to do that, "Don't eat chocolate before dinner. And then I do it, and then they see it and then they say, oh, mom, you said not to do that I don't eat chocolate before dinner. And then I do it, and then they see it and then they say, oh, mom, you said that. So how important is it? And I say, yes, I'm sorry, I did something that I told you not to do. And this is, you know, sort of the importance of modeling. What can you tell me about? Can you tell us about how important is that for a child to see sort of the words being modeled in behavior and in family life?

Jacqueline Clovis: 27:30

Yes, it is very, very important because they can read, you know, between the lines. They understand all these extra things, even from young, as from even, I think, from even one. They understand the extra like they just understand. So basically, they see, "okay, mommy says she didn't have chocolate before dinner, but she's having chocolate before dinner, and so they feel, okay, oh, sometimes mommy can say something but she doesn't really mean it, and so they feel okay, oh, sometimes mommy can say something but she doesn't really mean it, and so they pick it up.

Jacqueline Clovis: 28:08

And it's not easy to be consistent, but it's so important because that's how they learn. They learn through observing, they learn through interacting, they learn through our words. But I think that's the, they absorb the observation more from what I've seen, because even, yeah, the slightest thing you do. I remember once and I was working with some children and I think I, I picked up, I threw, I think someone threw a pen and they thought, oh, it was a game, and before you knew it they started throwing pens, and so they pick up.

Jacqueline Clovis: 28:51

So I think it's very important, it's very important to model your behavior, how you want them to behave, to speak, how you want them to speak, to use the words you want them to use, because they're just going to copy it. They just kind of put adults on a pedestal and whatever the adult is doing is what should be done, and they do this for a very long time. It takes them a long time before they start coming up with their own opinions and their own. They just copy, copy, copy. So, yes, it's very important to model what you want.

Sheila Nonato: 29:28

And in your podcast you were explaining virtue you were defining as a firm disposition of intellect and will to do good, and how to incorporate that in everyday life. Can you give us some tips? What are you doing now that we could sort of incorporate? And now the kids are at home in Canada and in the United States I don't know, maybe Britain too, kids are home for the summer. And how do we incorporate virtues without making it too, you know, like school, like they'd be? Oh, I don't want to learn.

Sheila Nonato: 30:01

It's summer, but how do you make it fun and incorporate virtue in family life?

Jacqueline Clovis: 30:08

Yes, I think it's getting children involved in family life, giving them chores and giving them responsibility. So one thing I really enjoyed when I worked in a Montessori setting is the concept of practical life. It was incorporated into the curriculum. So, for example, the children would help to make their sandwiches. The children would help to, you know, fold napkins and teach them to fold napkins. They will have their little brush and dustpan to help to sweep up. They will have their little squeegees to, you know, wipe the windows. So I feel like it helps them learn a lot of virtues as they're getting involved in family life in a practical way helping to set up the dinner table, helping to stack the dishwasher. So I think that's a very good way of helping them. So, yeah, just giving them age-appropriate chores. You can ask a three-year-old to help to set up the table. A three-year-old can help to put some shoes away, some clothes in the laundry baskets, you know. So I feel like it's incorporating, making them get involved and also things like and then just explaining how it links veggies. So, for example, you can say, okay, as well as setting this table, let's make it look nice so that the family can have a nice time. And I appreciate the effort of helping to set the table as well, so that you're just making it. I think it's very important to make it pleasant, a pleasant experience, because I feel like virtue is so important and so, so necessary and so good. But sometimes on the journey to virtue it can be so hard, like people have had really difficult experiences, and when they grow up they just say, oh, my mom said this to me, shouted at me when I was setting the table, and they just don't realize that no, she was trying to teach you. But you know. So I think it's just to try as much as we can to do it in a loving way.

Jacqueline Clovis: 32:18

Another thing is doing practical things like planting seeds and watching them grow and watering them. That teaches you perseverance, because you cannot just speed up the growth, you have to actually persevere. Plant it, water it every day. You know to stick to the process and to you know kind of tame their desire to just rush, to actually watch and be patient, and so they are learning patience in planting. They're learning patience when they're even doing chores generally. They're learning to yeah that sacrifice to help others and then also when they are sharing as well.

Jacqueline Clovis: 33:06

That you can also use that to explain, um, why it's good to share turn taking. It's your turn, now it's his turn. And then the child might be crying oh but I want to play with the toy or I don't want to share. And you explain that you know we had. It's good to share because remember how you enjoyed it when it was your turn. Now we did. Wouldn't it be nice if sam enjoyed it as much as you enjoyed it?

Jacqueline Clovis: 33:33

Just teaching them about other people's emotions as well. And yeah, I think it's actually tied in into practical them being involved in the family, and through that you can bring in the composition and it just comes in naturally. But if they are not involved in the house, they are not involved in anything, or they don't have any choice, then it's so hard. You have to like, force it in because they're probably in their room on their laptop, on their phone, and then you now have to force the composition of virtue. But if they are not in their room and they're engaged in the family life, then it just comes up naturally and you would also see how they react as well and it will help.

Jacqueline Clovis: 34:20

You know what area you need to help.

Jacqueline Clovis: 34:22

You know help them with in particular. So you would see how your daughter reacts when she's trying to set up the table, how she reacts when it's her day to put the washing, and then it will help. You know, okay, I need to have this conversation with her about, you know, helping in the family, about why is it a good thing, about the joy of being a family member and loving in, loving your family members, and this is how we show our love, through the sacrifice, our action, you know. So I think that is a good way of bringing it in and then having like time where you do joyful things as a family. Um, you go out together and and you would observe things as you're together and you can talk about it. Oh, did you notice how that man jumped the queue? That is not good. Sometimes people are in a hurry. Well, we try to think about other people, so that's why we don't jump the queue, you know. So, even in that, you know, you can have a conversation about virtue as well.

Sheila Nonato: 35:22

Even in that you know you can have the conversation about virtue as well. These are all great tips, and I'm just curious what is your stance on giving rewards? Do we reward virtue or how do we encourage it without you know? I mean, I guess there's sort of a some families have a system of allowances. So my husband's theory is you know, the kids have chores and then if they complete them at the end of the week, then they get. I don't know. I forgot now. How much do we give them? Let's say $5. And then that goes into. We give it to them and hopefully they keep it. We encourage them to put it in the bank so you can have more later. What's your advice? For you know, do we give rewards for virtues or do we give the rewards for completing tasks?

Jacqueline Clovis: 36:10

We should put the give, the reward, to efforts, because what you're trying to do is you're trying to teach them how to persevere. So I feel like that should be the main focus, like the effort they put. So when you tell a child to help to do the laundry or yes, for example, do the laundry and they actually put effort to do the laundry and actually you know, sort out the clothes really nicely, and you praise them for the effort and saying I really like how you sorted out the clothes, I like how you responded immediately when I asked you to do this, and I feel that helps them persevere over a long period of time. The thing about only praising the outcome is that they become outcome-based and not thinking about the journey, and this happens a lot with even adults. So at that point all I was thinking about was my and this happens a lot with even adults. So at that point all I was thinking about was my outcome, what I wanted and how I couldn't control what I wanted, and that's why I was so upset. But now when I think about it, I'm like, oh, the journey. God was working on me, he was working in my heart, he was teaching me, and now I appreciate the journey more, like during the journey I'm learning. So when I even started doing a podcast, it was just thinking about the journey. When I started thinking about it from the perspective of how important the journey itself is, that really helped me because I thought, okay, this is my first podcast and okay, that's fine, because this is my first one and it's a journey, and it's an exciting journey. It's an adventure, you know, and I feel that that is very important.

Jacqueline Clovis: 37:51

But I also see the value in giving rewards at the end as well, just intermittently, not all the time. So, for example, when we tell the children to tidy up and we say, if you tidy up, we're going to give you a sticker, we find that all the children just start tidying up and we know that, okay, they're just putting the toys anyway. They don't even care if they're putting it in the right drawer, because it's all about tidy up and getting a sticker. And but when sometimes we don't give them a sticker and sometimes we do so sometimes we say tidy up and we don't say we're going to give you a sticker, it's just tidy up because that's the right thing to do. And so I feel that it also mirrors reality, because sometimes we do things, we work hard and we get. You get an A, you get a physical reward, so that shows you that sometimes you will get a reward.

Jacqueline Clovis: 38:46

But there are other times you might work hard and you might not get that reward you hoped for. You know, and you work hard and you didn't get the promotion you wanted. Or you work hard to build a relationship or to have this friend, and after everything you've done for this friend, she still doesn't accept you as her friend. So I feel like it's good to do it intermittently build a relationship or to have this friend, and after everything you've done for this friend, she still doesn't accept you as her friend. So I feel like it's good to do it intermittently if you're going to use the reward system, so that it's not it's not just, it doesn't end up just being about the reward, because also the research says that when children just do things for the reward, they do not see the value of the action in itself.

Jacqueline Clovis: 39:26

And so there was a research done where children were given gold stars every time they drew and after a while they just stopped drawing, even if before they were given gold stars they were always drawing. After introducing the concept of gold stars. When you draw, you just felt like, okay, I just want the gold star, and then they just stop drawing. So, because you want them to get used to giving used to the process of learning and used to the process that comes with all sorts of things in life, you want to do intermittently and also you want to praise the efforts as well.

Jacqueline Clovis: 40:02

So that's what I would say yeah, okay, do intermittently and also you want to praise the efforts as well, so that's what I will say yeah, okay. So, yeah, I can see what you're saying about um having the reward, um, but I guess explaining also this is you know, you did a great effort and I'd like to give, but I guess not to tie it into like love, right, because we love them regardless of what they do, right, um, the children, um, so yeah, I guess for me, I find it yeah yeah, sorry, go ahead if you feel okay.

Jacqueline Clovis: 40:34

Oh yeah, I feel like. Okay, I feel like also, um, every child is different. So for some children you have to keep on explaining to them because they tend to compare themselves. But they're all different, they're all motivated by different things. So some really need to see that you appreciate what they've done all the time and it's just like thinking about different creative ways of sharing that appreciation.

Jacqueline Clovis: 41:02

That does not have to be um extrinsic rewards. So stickers, money, you know, special treats are extrinsic rewards, whereas um words of affirmation and pride, proud, being proud of what you've done and just loving what you do. They are, they are more intrinsic and over time you want to really make them run on intrinsic motivation because that is more long-lasting, like what we see in man's search for meaning, meaning, love. It lasts longer. That's when you're able to do more. So initially you start with that, but you slowly start encouraging them to see the value of what they are doing itself, how it is helping the family, how they are contributing to the family, and so that they actually kind of start seeing things more from that point of view like, oh, the intrinsic reward even, so that they can persevere even when things are hard, even when it seems like there's no reward, even when things are long, because even when it seems like there's no reward, even when things are long, because sometimes things take a long time you might be learning the piano and it's going to take a long time before you're able to feel like you can play the piano.

Jacqueline Clovis: 42:12

So, yes, well, yes, I think explaining is so important, because every child is different, they all have different needs, and explain to them. This is why, for this person, I do this. It's just to help her. But what if you feel you're not happy? Can you tell me what you would like or what you, you know, have that conversation, so they all. I think it's all beautiful when there's that relationship in the family where the children feel safe enough to talk about how they feel, and so that's why that foundation of just creating a safe environment where the children can talk about how they feel or you're still the adult, so you still have a routine in place, you still, you still encourage them to push themselves, but you still, you are able to be kind and firm, and so it helps them to be able to say how they feel and then you're able to explain. Okay, this is why I do this, or this is why we're doing this. So, yeah, I think that dialogue really helps.

Sheila Nonato: 43:17

Yeah, yes, absolutely. And your business name is Determined to Thrive (on Instagram; Determined to Achieve website). You're teaching moms, families, children to thrive. What happens when? Because we can't win them all. So what happens when? There's a difficult lesson, we did not achieve what we wanted to achieve, or a child did not pass a test, or something happened that was not the they, the result they wanted? How do we, how would he teach them at that time? How do we? What virtue do we teach them at that time?

Jacqueline Clovis: 43:52

Yeah. So I think it's so important to prepare children, um to like, for moments where they're going to fall. So I was just I had a poster I put for roll with the fall, because people who carry, you know, do stunts, carry out stunts they actually learn how to fall well. So it's part of what they, they learn they learn how to fall well. So when they fall, they put their hands forward, they roll with the fall, and so that's where that growth mindset comes in, from a very young age, teaching them about, like, resilience, about, um, the effort is so important. Because when they see that the effort is so important, they would, they would appreciate more of what they've done and just say, okay, I did put efforts, I did put in my best and I didn't get an a or I actually didn't put in my best, you know, they're able to actually analyze and see where they've gone wrong, because they know that effort is important. So even even for them who, for a child who didn't get an e, you're able to go back and think, okay, what, what went wrong. They're able to compare their papers if they need to, or able to go to the teacher, because that growth mindset always seeks to learn, so they won't have a problem with going back to the teacher and saying, okay, what happened or how can I improve, because it's always about learning. So a lot the research done on the growth mindset has actually shown that students with the growth mindset would go back to the teacher, ask questions, find out what, what you know, make them have the scores they have.

Jacqueline Clovis: 45:35

But children with the fixed mindset will struggle to go back to learn from their mistakes, and so it's really incorporating the growth mindset in the children from a really young age, and that is from praising efforts, from teaching them that you know, life is full of challenges with fall. But teaching them how to fall well and how children also learn how to fall well is by observing the adults around them. So when they observe the adults, how do the adults around me take criticism? How do the adults around me bounce back from difficulty, and that teaches them how to bounce back from difficulty. So when they see, for example, let's say, a family is trying to move house and the mortgage doesn't go through, and they are observing, they observe how their parents take the disappointment and that teaches them how to take disappointment as well. So that's also very important, bouncing back from challenges and also not running away from difficulty as well. Because what they found was that the children with the gross mindsets were happy to do difficult puzzles, but the children with the fixed mindset would just stop at the puzzle that was easiest to do and they would not want to challenge themselves. So also, learning that it's okay to, you know, challenge yourself, because while learning you're learning. So just really incorporating that culture of learning. And what they also find is that when there's a culture of the growth mindset in the home or in the school, then the child is able to express it more. So it has to be a family culture of growth mindset where we're all learning and we all we make mistakes and we say you know, I find like sometimes parents find it very difficult to say sorry when they make a mistake, but they're teaching the child to be ashamed of mistakes and it is the child oh, I should feel bad when I make a mistake.

Jacqueline Clovis: 47:35

So you see, some children they spill a spill a drink and they're just looking at the drink as it's just dripping down and it's just like what have I done? Oh, my gosh, it's horrible. I'm a bad person, but spilling a drink is part of life and happens to anybody. Even adults spill their drinks. So the adult is the one that is going to help the child understand how to fall. Well, like, okay, you spilled the drink, this happens. Okay, let's clean it up.

Jacqueline Clovis: 48:04

It was like just making them feel that it's okay sometimes to make a mistake and I too make mistakes and the most important thing is that we clean up after it happens. You can't just sit there and just be looking at it. It's like the attitude of bouncing back. Yes, this happened. Yes, I feel embarrassed, but what am I going to do next? So I feel like that has to. Yeah, so that's the way to do it really, to really bring in that growth mindset of bouncing back, falling, falling and rolling with the fall. Ok, I don't like what is happening, but I can learn from it and I can find out what the correct answers are. I can study harder next time.

Jacqueline Clovis: 48:48

And sometimes even the parent can sit down with them and just analyze the situation with them and just say, ok, did you actually put in your best?

Jacqueline Clovis: 48:55

Analyze the situation with them and just say, okay, did you actually put in your best? I noticed that you're playing video games yesterday and you know to really analyze with them, to help them, and I think this also strengthens the intellect, because there is always this battle between the intellect and the emotion. And so what you're trying to do is really strengthen the intellect and not make them. To make them guided by the intellect and grace, and to do that you have to keep on making them to return to logic and showing them why. And showing them, because some people would just say, okay, I should just make them, I should just support them in a way that does not actually highlight what, what they've done wrong and that won't help them grow and that won't help them develop that intellect. So they have to see objectively where they've gone wrong, but you also have to like, be kind about it and teach them about self-compassion, and you know all this thing, yeah.

Sheila Nonato: 49:56

Yes, yes, those are are, yeah, those are great tips and that will definitely help Catholic families to thrive. And I just, uh, finally wanted to look at um, just one of your podcasts. You labeled it thriving as a catholic family and you were talking about you know some tips, you know putting god first, knowing him, loving him, serving God, having holy images, holy photos in the house, having an altar, a set prayer time, bringing the children to Mass. What other tips can we incorporate so we can have a thriving Catholic family, so we can have a thriving Catholic family.

Jacqueline Clovis: 50:38

Yes, I think also making them interacting with good Catholic families as well is very helpful, so that they can see other Catholic families and they can have Catholic friends. Because what happens is when they are really young, they are just thinking it's only their parents' opinion they think about, but as they get to 13 and above even these days, from like 9 or even 7, they're already thinking about, so they're so engrossed with what their friends are doing and their friends' opinion. So having Catholic friends will help them when they're at that age where they are just trying to fit in. So they actually have Catholic friends where they are just trying to fit in and so they actually have catholic friends. Um, another thing I think is very helpful is also making that inviting priests to dinner or nuns to dinner so they have a dinner with the family, because they sometimes, you have very good conversations. So for me, I come from a family of 11 and I have 12, so at 14, including my parents, so 12 children, and sometimes we'll have a priest come over and the priest who would, um, you know, talk about the faith, and I found it very interesting because they will come from a different angle, because after a while you get so used to your parents and their angle and it's nice when the priest now talks about you know they might even be saying the same thing, but they come from a different angle.

Jacqueline Clovis: 51:55

And it's nice when the priest now talks about you know they might even be saying the same thing, but they come from a different angle and it touches you in a different way. So that's a nice way of just bringing in, getting them used to seeing priests and reverend sisters and but the one and they just have this nice thing. They have this lovely dinner where they can ask the priest questions, and so I think that's something that was very nice that we had in our family. And another thing that was really nice was just learning Catholic songs. So we had a family friend who will come and teach us Catholic songs and I feel like that was really nice. And then after our night prayers we will sing those songs to kind of incorporate it in. So that is something, yeah, that that really um helps me. I have like really good memories around that.

Jacqueline Clovis: 52:43

So, yes, I think it's just important to just make the faith really a joyful thing. I know it's hard sometimes because you're trying to instill that discipline and the routine and we say rosary now and that's why I think it's so important to bring in joy into the experience of saying the rosary now and that's why I think it's so important to bring in joy into the experience of saying the rosary. And even some mystery. And I was attending a talk one time and the speaker was talking about how, when they were going to have the rosary, they would turn off the lights and light the candles and the whole place would be dark and the only thing that was ringing light was the candle. And he just showed like now it's be dark and the only thing that was ringing light was the candle and it just showed, like now is rosary time.

Jacqueline Clovis: 53:22

So things like that, to just bring in that mystery and just make it interesting and a relative of ours, when they are seeing the rosary, they let the children change the pictures, like to represent different mysteries. So joyful mystery, there will be a picture and then you know just different the so joyful mystery. There will be a picture and then. So you know just different, the first joyful mystery. Then they'll ask the child to change it and so they are getting involved. So I think it's so important. You might think, oh, this is going to make it long.

Jacqueline Clovis: 53:47

I think it's so important for the child to actually get involved in it because when I look at what is happening in the education system, especially here in UK, they get the children involved in so many things and even values that their families may not hold, and I was just like you know they are involved in all these things even when they are so young, and it's not the values their family holds.

Jacqueline Clovis: 54:11

But imagine if the family was being proactive and letting them get involved in the things that represent the family's values. You know the rosary, getting involved in the liturgy, the colors, and you know, for example, it's Easter, we're going to decorate these Easter eggs and we're going to like when people do the tomb or you know, and they decorate it in their families. I think that's really nice and represents the risen lord. So just incorporating it to make it like fun and engaging and show that this is part of our life and we're joy, we're happily doing this, we're not forced or we're not miserably doing this, so I'm not forced that or I'm not miserably doing this and I yeah. So it's not easy, but I think it's so important to just have that before us as the target where we're headed to, to just keep us going and yeah yes,

Sheila Nonato: 55:09

Amazing, yeah, and you'll have to come back and talk to tell us about what it was like to grow up in a family of 14.

Sheila Nonato: 55:15

Next interview, but thank you for taking the time teaching us, giving us insights on how to thrive in motherhood and parenthood in trying to raise leaders and saints. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much. God bless and hope to see you again. I'll see you again. Thank you, take care, god bless Bye. See you again. Oh, I'll see you again. Thank you, take care, god bless Bye. Thank you so much. I appreciate it Bye.

Sheila Nonato: 55:43

Thank you to Jacqueline for all the tips on how to teach and model Christian virtue to our children. Her top parent tip of teaching self-regulation mirrors the virtue modeled by all the saints the ability to deny oneself, or, as we Catholics know it, as sacrifice, as Christ modeled for us. Sacrifice, meaning the cross, the little crosses we experience in our daily life, leads to our salvation. We can offer up our little crosses of the day as housewives, when we are washing the dishes, making dinner or changing the baby's diaper. We can offer that up for someone in need that day, for someone who could use a prayer or for a holy soul needing to be released from purgatory. In next week's episode we pick up the conversation with Sister Helena Burns and the Feminine Genius. How does that apply to our parenthood and how do we teach that to our children? Thank you and God bless. Thank you for listening to the Veil and Armour Podcast. Thank you and God bless.