16. Resilience and Faith: Rachel Wong on Christian Discernment, Mental Health and The Feminine Genius

What happens when resilience meets faith in the face of life’s trials? This week on Veil and Armour, we welcome pioneering Feminine Genius podcaster Rachel Wong from Vancouver, B.C., Canada. Rachel shares her remarkable journey as the founder of The Feminine Genius Podcast, which she hosted from 2019 to 2022. It was a podcast that celebrated the myriad expressions of Catholic femininity. She opens up about her mental health struggles and how her unwavering faith provided guidance during tough times. Rachel also reflects on her transformative experience at World Youth Day in Panama and the lasting impact it had on her spiritual and professional endeavours, and God's calling in her life.

Have you ever felt paralyzed by the fear of making life’s big decisions? Our discussion delves into the common struggle of discerning our vocation, both within religious life and beyond. Rachel revisits her experience discerning with the Daughters of St. Paul, while Sheila shares her "Come and See" experience with the Missionaries of Charity. Together, we explore the importance of taking steps in faith, the courage to embrace the unknown, and the continuous process of spiritual growth. Rachel recalls how she learned from each and every guest on her show, each contributing to the rich dialogue of faith and the Feminine Genius.

Our conversation also touches upon the growing acceptance of conversations surrounding mental health, especially within the Catholic community. The episode also touches upon the importance of fostering a supportive and inclusive community through digital media. Join us as we continue our mission of connecting and uplifting through the power of shared stories and faith.

For resources on mental health in Canada, please seek advice and help from your doctor and local health professional in your area/city/country.

In Canada, Kids Help Phone for children and teens is available: Text 686868 (free and across Canada, based upon information found online on Sept. 11, 2024)  https://www.kidshelpphone.ca

As of Sept. 11 2024, YouTube recommends this link of resources:
https://findahelpline.com/

Connect with Rachel Wong:
Instagram: @rchlcwng
https://www.rachelwong.substack.com

Connect with Sheila:
- Instagram
- X / Twitter
- Website

https://www.veilandarmour.com

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Chapters

• 0:19 Feminine Genius in Catholic Women
• 9:19 Resilience and Faith in the Face of an Unknown Future
• 24:44 Fostering Connection Through Podcasting
• 33:54 Faith and Mental Wellness Discussion
• 41:59 Empowering Catholic Moms Through Podcasting

Transcript

Sheila Nonato: 0:19

Thank you, enrich the lives of Catholic women, to help them in living out our vocation of raising the next generation of leaders and saints.

Co-Host: 0:27

Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour podcast, where stories come alive through a journalist's lens and mother's heart.

Sheila Nonato: 0:36

Welcome to Episode 16. Today we speak with the host of The Feminine Genius podcast, Rachel Wong, from Vancouver, British Columbia, and she had this podcast for three amazing years. We talk about vocation, discerning a religious vocation, and Rachel also talks candidly about her struggles with mental health and dealing with mental health, and also what is next for Rachel. Stay tuned. Welcome to Rachel Wong, to Veil and Armour. We are so happy to have you here and so honored to have you here. Thank you, yeah, thanks for having me, sheila. Thank you, and I usually just start just saying the Hail Mary.

Sheila Nonato: 1:16

So, yeah, we'll just start with that, if that's okay. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen, Amen, Hail Mary, Full of Grace. The Lord is with thee.

Rachel Wong: 1:32

Blessed art thou amongst women, and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Holy.

Sheila Nonato: 1:37

Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Amen. I'd like to introduce you to our guest. Rachel Wong is a Catholic writer and speaker based in Vancouver, Canada. She's formerly the host of The Feminine Genius Podcast, a podcast that celebrates the diversity of Catholic femininity, one woman's story at a time. She loves storytelling, connecting with others over good food and conversation, and adventuring with the Lord. Thank you, Rachel, welcome. Thank you. Thank you, yeah, so great to be here and touring with the Lord.

Rachel Wong: 2:05

Thank you, Rachel, welcome. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, so great to be here and to be with you.

Sheila Nonato: 2:09

So yeah, I've been listening to your podcast. Amazing, amazing work, and can you tell us how did it start.

Rachel Wong: 2:15

t, and I have to say too, it's been a while since I've actually told the story and I think, just as some context for your listeners as well, The Feminine Genius podcast had run from 2019 to about 2022. So here we are recording in 2024. So it's interesting, I think, to talk about it in the past tense, because it's still something that folks can, of course, listen to, but it's not live like there are no new episodes coming out, not live like there are no new episodes coming out.

Rachel Wong: 2:48

But I think the long and short of it is that I, in 2019, I'd gone to World Youth Day and that year it was hosted in Panama and I you know it was my first time like being that far away from home, without family, and I went with Catholic Christian Outreach on a mission trip and it was a beautiful experience. You know everybody talks about World Youth Day and being like this kind of pivotal moment for a lot of Catholic young adults, and certainly it was no different for me like very impactful, getting to see Pope Francis and just being with, you know, hundreds, millions of, like hundreds of thousands and millions of Catholics from around the world and just seeing everybody praising the Lord in that way and I remember, just like even going into that mission, that pilgrimage, really feeling a sense of, I guess, like, maybe like frustration with my own life. I was kind of at that point in my university degree where things were starting to come to an end with my time in school and I thought I knew what I was going to do with my life. But I wasn't so sure and I had been an avid listener of podcasts up until that point and I was studying communications, I wanted to do something with media but, yeah, things weren't really lining up, so let's just put it that way. So fast forward to World Youth Day, and I really got a sense that the Lord was inviting me to something big. And that year World Youth Day was also held in January, which is very unusual, but because of where Panama is in the world, that's their summertime, so it worked out that way. But because of where Panama is in the world, that's their summertime, so it worked out that way.

Rachel Wong: 4:27

Very unusual, so kind of new year, new me mentality, and I was really feeling like the Lord was inviting me to something new and it was just, you know, simple things like reminding me of different women who I had been in touch with over the course of you know the past several months, who I had been in touch with over the course of you know the past several months just women that I admired, women like Catholic women, who had so much faith and were doing so many incredible things with the church. And I think at that point too, it was not only like what was I going to do career wise, but also how do I, as a woman, serve in the church? And there was no tangible way forward for me. I couldn't see anything really like clean and clear, but it was just like these things where it's like he was reminding me of women who inspired me. He was calling to mind these interests that I had, both like professionally and personally, and it was kind of coming together in this interesting soup of like okay, maybe something with media for women, you know, something Catholic, and that was really what it is, and it kind of you know, to use the soup metaphor it really like simmered on the stove for a bit until I actually found myself kind of in your corner of the country, sheila.

Rachel Wong: 5:41

I was in Ottawa at the time, visiting some friends, and I was in front of the Blessed Sacrament. We had gone to an adoration chapel and it just kind of hit right there where I really felt the Lord inviting me to. You know, like He's spoken to many prophets and people in the Bible. And here he was just like I want you to do this, like this thing that you'd been thinking about. And I think over those months it was kind of simmering into this podcast question mark and I put it out there for the Lord and he's like I want you to do this. And I told Him because I was like really resistant at the time too, even though it was simmering in my heart. It's like that weird juxtaposition of it was simmering in my heart, there was something kind of coming and bubbling, but once He offered it to me I was like no, I can't do it. And I was just like well, if you want me to do it, Lord, like you're going to have to make it really easy and really clear.

Rachel Wong: 6:41

And this is the part where I like to tell people that the Lord has like the greatest marketing brain. He's very good at search engine optimization. Because after we were at the Adoration Chapel and we went back to my friend's place, I just casually looked up on I think it was probably Google domains at the time, google domains and I just searched up femininegeniuspodcastcom and it was available. Like no website existed. I was just like you've got to be kidding me. So naturally, I did the only reasonable thing to do and I bought it, and then the rest was history. So from there, you know, just kind of taking time to brainstorm, you know, reaching out to different people, and it had run, like I said, from 2019 to 2022, over 100 women and just a really fabulous time getting to do stuff like this, like having conversations, but ultimately learning so much about the way God moves and how he speaks to each one of us and, ultimately, the different ways in which we can serve the church as a woman.

Sheila Nonato: 7:50

Awesome, and the term "feminine genius. What does it mean to you?

Rachel Wong: 7:56

Yeah, it's a beautiful one and I remember being really frustrated at first that Pope St John Paul II, in his documents on women he never really outright comes out to define the term.

Rachel Wong: 8:10

But maybe it's for the best. It really is. In some senses it is what you make of it, but I think at the heart of it it really is just the unique charisms and also the struggles that a woman carries in their life but also brings into the world. And we know that women have this beautiful and innate physical and also like emotional and spiritual capacity to bear life and bring forth life. So really like the different things that make up who we are as women both the quote-unquote good and the quote-unquote bad all of those things tied together really make up our feminine genius, because it's a unique combination of things that only we have and it is those things that inform the ways in which we move in the world and bring forth life in the world. So that's how I would define the feminine genius and ultimately what it means to me, because I've definitely seen how that really has impacted my own life and my own story, which continues to be written by the Lord as we go forward.

Sheila Nonato: 9:19

So can you tell me what is the next chapter for you? You mentioned your podcast ran until 2022. Are you going to see another revival of it, or what's the new chapter for you?

Rachel Wong: 9:33

Yeah, you know, if anybody knows, I would love that direct line to God or any spoilers, because the short answer is I don't know. The slightly longer answer is that, thanks be to God, it's still being written. I would love to continue to do things with media and within a Catholic context, just because that really has been where my heart has lived for the past several years. I spent some time in discernment with the Daughters of St. Paul, so a congregation of religious women who serve the church through media and proclaiming the gospel through books and podcasts and social media and all those wonderful things, and that in itself was an education and really a formation, and hence why we call that period of time when a woman enters to the time a woman professes perpetual vows. It's a time and season of formation and, in a sense, we all are in different ways, in different kinds of formation, like human formation, spiritual formation, just being able to grow and learn more. So you know, I discerned a little bit with them and realized that, okay, like that's not where the Lord is calling me. So, yeah, again, like it's a slightly longer answer where I'm just like I'm really unsure, but I certainly, like I tell people and I also tell myself too that if the Lord ever were to provide me with an opportunity to do you know what you're doing, sheila like in a different context, in a different medium, like I'd be really open to it. But I think, like, interestingly, I think the word that I received for this year is hidden, and it's a lot of these things, like you know, in some sense it's kind of stepping back from public life, so to speak, but also a lot of things that the Lord is doing in my life right now are completely hidden to me, and I think they usually are, but in a particular way currently it just feels very hidden, yeah, very mysterious, and you know we're just trying to go along with whatever it is he's trying to unfold.

Rachel Wong: 11:54

One of the priests in our Archdiocese here in Vancouver. He loves to talk about the adventure and the drama of life, and I really feel like that's exactly it right now, drama of life and I really feel like that's exactly it right now. It's, you know, being able to just hold on like very tightly and see where the Lord is going. You know, especially after coming out of formation, it's an interesting time to acclimatize back to life on the outside, so to speak, but yeah, so no concrete plans as of yet, but certainly, as things unfold, I'm eager and willing. Whatever the Lord wants to do, I'm ready to do it.

Sheila Nonato: 12:32

That's awesome. Yeah for myself. I also had discerned religious life right after university, so I stayed at a place called Stella Morris, a discernment house for women yeah, I don't know if it's still open in Toronto.

Sheila Nonato: 12:46

It was run by the Missionary Sisters of the Precious Blood and I had been volunteering with the Missionaries of Charity as a tutor in Toronto as well, and I spent an evening was it a couple of days? I forget now Either one or two days in their house, amazing women, and I commend you for doing that because it's like you said, it's an adventure, it's a journey, and it can cause a little bit of anxiety or fear because you don't know what you're going into, but I truly commend you as a young person I hope you don't mind me calling you a young person that you, yeah, you decided to try it. You decided to answer God's call because, like you said, we don't know what the next step will be until we try, and that's truly amazing that you did that.

Rachel Wong: 13:39

Yeah, thank you yeah.

Rachel Wong: 13:43

And I absolutely agree with you, like it's with so many things, like whether it's like discerning a particular vocation, and I feel like that's really been like the crux of it all is just, you know, being able to overcome that like decision paralysis, and then from there it's like that anxiety or the stress of, okay, but what if it doesn't work out. But the flip side is well, what if it does? And I have to remind myself of that time and time again. And of course, even to take a step in any one direction, it's not the forever step. It's not like once you take that step forward, you're suddenly cemented in lead. There are just so many choices out there and what I've really come to see is that's how the Lord really moves in my life, and I think it's true for many people. It's just the particular ways of how he calls us, but ultimately he does invite us in a direction. He doesn't coerce us into a particular direction.

Sheila Nonato: 15:30

And from there it's really up to us to explore and to discern and listen, Listen well, of course and to pray through it. But I have to agree with you, it was truly a formative and eye-opening experience that I don't think I would be who I am right now had I not gone through the time that I was with them and even in the time leading up to it, like preparing for actually moving and going there and being with the sisters.

Sheila Nonato: 15:41

So yeah, that's amazing. Can you tell me about your guests on the podcast, memorable guests over the years?

Rachel Wong: 15:45

Yeah, I mean like I think that you probably will forgive me for saying this where it's like you know they're all my favorites and you know it's kind of like you know a mom to their children, in a sense, um, just because of the fact that they were all so different and and I think like that was really the point was just to show like a wide range, um, but certainly, um, you know, just just to not play favorites, like I think I'll be intentionally, like I intentionally won't share names, but certainly like what I really admired was just the fact that there were so many people from all walks of life. You know everything from stay-at-home moms who were running online ministries from their living room, you know in the midst of raising many children, which is, it's, mind boggling to me, because sometimes I feel like I can barely do one task, let alone many things, simultaneously. So it's just wonderful, you know, to high powered business women. You know chief executive officers or women who've started their own business. They're running their own business. You know women who have been in religious life for long periods of time converts to the Catholic Church, and also, and I would say, like you know, to your question about, like some, like standout or memorable ones, like I have to say, of course, like they all were memorable in their own way, of course, like they all were memorable in their own way.

Rachel Wong: 17:03

But the stories in particular that I really was drawn to and really felt myself grow through were ones where women had experienced, like exceptional trials, you know, things like miscarriage, or like a death in the family, or perhaps like a crisis of discernment or vocation, if you will, and just seeing how they were able to overcome, and by no means were any of these things easy.

Rachel Wong: 17:36

And I think a lot of these women, like they recognize that, like they recognize that it was such a hard fought battle, but to see their faith get them through those tough times, even if at the time, like they themselves didn't realize it.

Rachel Wong: 17:48

But I think it's like it's. It's such an interesting position to be in as an interviewer where you're able to in most cases you're hearing this, these stories, in past tense, so you get to see the woman as they are right now, having endured the different things that they have, like you know, going through several miscarriages or, um, you know, perhaps like they had lost a loved one, um, there was one, one girl that comes to mind right now who has, um, like a hearing disorder, so she's not able, she's totally deaf in one ear, you know. Or like one one who is legally blind, and how she's able to serve the church that way. It's incredible to hear the different ways that women have been able to overcome, and of course it's through their own hard work, but ultimately through the grace of God. So it's just again, beautiful ways of seeing how the Lord is present and active and constantly at work.

Sheila Nonato: 18:45

Amazing. So I'm seeing sort of a theme of resilience and faith through all the stories that you have been sharing, sort of sharing these stories to help people, to empower people and to also help them to see that you know we go through the cross but there's also Resurrection after going through the Cross.

Rachel Wong: 19:19

Yeah, I love that phrase. So thank you for saying that and I think so. It's like certainly that was like one of the big aspects of it for me was certainly so. It's like certainly that was like one of the big aspects of it for me was certainly it was, in many senses, like hoping to just open the door to the fact that there are so many different ways in which, like, we live our lives and, as we know, like life is not perfect and there are going to be, like, the thorny parts of it and there are going to be, like the thorny parts of it and just how, like even there, like the Lord can use that to help us grow, help us mature, and how, like that suffering can bear great fruit. So I think that that certainly is part of it.

Rachel Wong: 19:57

The other part, or aspect of it, I think, is also just, you know this, this was really um coming at a time when I was maybe feeling a little discontented with um, just a woman's place in in the church, you know, not to like challenge, like you know, for for me personally, it's like I'm not looking to become an ordained minister in the Church, like that's not it at all, but just feeling like what can we do then? What are we able to do? And kind of feeling a little bit of maybe personally for me and I can only speak for myself it was a little bit of anxiety about, okay, what am I going to do? And just feeling like, am I called to emulate or be exactly like this missionary that I really appreciate, or this good friend of mine who is running like her own small Catholic business? But it doesn't feel like me. So like, what am I supposed to do, since I'm not quite like this person or that person? I'm not ready to get married yet and at the time I wasn't open to discerning religious life. So, like, what is it?

Rachel Wong: 21:04

And I think like, as time has gone and I was able to interview all of these women, it really was to show that, you know, it's kind of that truth that we all know where it's. Like there is no one right way and I use right in air quotes there's no one right way to be a Catholic woman, and thanks be to God for that, because he made us each so unique and so wonderfully different that I know that even for myself at the time, like as a podcaster, I knew that there were going to be some people that you know thanks be to God, they love the show and they're able to resonate with the guests and whatnot. They're able to resonate with the guests and whatnot. And you know there might be some people out there who just they don't vibe with me, they don't like the show, and that's okay too, and it's a wonderful thing that there at the time, there were so many of us like I was connected to so many other female Catholic podcasters from around Canada and around the United States and we built like a little community to support one another. And it was just wonderful to see even that at work too, because you know where I'm not able to catch all the fish, so to speak, there's someone else out there also fishing, right, there's someone else out there, like also trying to catch, because we're all trying to get people to the Lord.

Rachel Wong: 22:30

And I think that that's one of the biggest things that you know we really find like with like the feminist movement is that at times I really find that it's trying to pit people against one another and as women, we've already had a very difficult time trying to compete with men. So when you add in like competing with other women in there, it just makes it so tiresome and it really it kind of defeats the purpose of what we're all trying to do. So it's again like it's been a real gift and grace to be able to collaborate with other women and to see how they're thriving and be able to support. And of course, it's not to say that there weren't moments in my own heart where I really felt challenged or even jealous, but it was an opportunity for me to really see the Lord at work there and again, to use your word resilience, just to see how, when we are able to put aside our differences or even put aside our ego and really enter in with humility, just how much more we can achieve. Because that's really like, I think, what our church needs from women is to be able to, you know, be that quiet, humble presence in a sense.

Rachel Wong: 23:38

Not like quiet, like don't talk, but in a sense like just be present. Quiet like don't talk, but in a sense like just be present, be open to people, be willing to speak up when needed, to see other people in the dignity that God has given them, um, and to empower in big and small ways, like there are women who are called to to speak up and speak out and there are other women who are called to to maybe like be like that, that prayerful, silent witness, and all are important. There are no two that are like unimportant, right, like we are all needed and necessary and um, I think like there's a lot of like strength there, um, regardless of how we're called, and um, even in the different seasons in which we're called to, because in a woman's life, as we know like, and even in the different seasons in which we're called to, because in a woman's life, as we know like, there are so many different seasons to it and it's just being able to be resilient and faithful, like throughout. awesome.

Sheila Nonato: 24:44

When you mentioned presence, I'm thinking about I don't know if you know Lisa Canning. She's, I think she's a mom of 11. Yeah, she was love her. Yeah, she was talking about a podcast and how. It's really a unique way of meetings that well, meeting somebody or giving your voice to somebody, and that they're in, they're literally in your ear, you know, or the person you're listening to is in your ear, like nobody else is that close to you right yeah, it's like they're there and they, you have their, their attention.

Sheila Nonato: 25:19

And sometimes, when you know for myself, as a you know stay-at at home mom who works part time, sometimes I'm with the kids literally all day and listening to an adult that's, you know, not my husband that's the only time while cooking dinner, listening right and hearing the stories, like having these adventures while in my kitchen doing the dishes and and cooking dinner, that's sort of a really special way of, I would say, evangelizing, even if that's not what people mean to do, or being even just present to somebody who might not have the physical presence of somebody there, or maybe they're too shy or too afraid to ask certain questions, even to maybe their priests.

Sheila Nonato: 26:09

Um, I feel like it's it's opening sort of uh conversation to topics that might not be, that might be taboo, let's say even miscarriage, I would say nobody talked to me. I have had two miscarriages. They're two babies in heaven. Yeah, nobody talked to me about it. So you kind of feel alone. And then when you hear somebody, let's say on social media, you know there are all kinds of ways to waste time like I'm talking about myself waste time, and but then there's this special, unique purpose for good that you know people like you have been using to help other people and to connect other people, and I think it's really amazing. Is that what you set out to do when you started the podcast?

Rachel Wong: 26:56

I mean I think I would be lying if I said no. So certainly there was a great expectation that there would be something good. I guess that comes out of it. And of course it's like there is, you know, the natural human tendency of like, yeah, kind of holding a certain amount of influence. But of course, as a Catholic creator and entering into a space that is so caught up with consumption of time, of material goods, of money, we have to be very careful. We have to be very careful, stewards of how we utilize the tools and, of course, what we're putting out there.

Rachel Wong: 27:44

But you know, in all honesty, like I could have it, could have never prepared me for what was going to unfold, like over the years that I ran the podcast, just because you know there are people reaching out to me from like all corners of the world and I was just like how, how are you listening to me? You know, and not realizing. Of course it's like, well, duh, rachel, like there's a thing called technology, ever heard of it? So you know, and but but like, in all seriousness, like it was just a really incredible thing to see how quickly, like you know, through the gift of technology, how quickly, like we are able to connect with one another and through that I was able to meet, you know, women from all over Canada, the United States, and and even interview some from, like, Australia and the Philippines. So, just like really being able to just like grow a little community. And you know, again, like, just with with every little bit of growth let's just call it that like with every little bit of growth, you know always having to, you know, yeah, go back to that main purpose of just what am I trying to do here. But ultimately, like, what is God doing with all of this? And it was really keeping a keen ear on you know how the spirit is moving and who is he inviting me to reach out to.

Rachel Wong: 29:10

And even like, if there were some ideas that I had that just they weren't coming to fruition, then you know really taking that as a sign of like, okay, this is not for right now, and that's fine, and let's go somewhere else, let's do something different. And that really was even like the move towards like winding down the podcast. Even it was just kind of seeing that. Okay, you know, not just like personal circumstances, but also feeling like the work is never done, but perhaps it's like you know, my time with it. You know, for using that analogy of being a steward rather than an owner, my stewardship of this podcast has come to an end and that was a really hard thing for me to let go of, just because it was something that I loved and I think, as you know very well, it's a lot of work, but in the midst of it I knew that it was good work and it was something that I enjoyed.

Rachel Wong: 30:06

And I love being able to connect with women, not only to do the podcast but also some of the other things that would come up with it, like going to speak and um to do other, like podcasts, uh, interviews and whatnot.

Rachel Wong: 30:19

Um, just being able to, you know, at the heart of it, like really share the Lord, um, and how I've come to know about him and and what it is that he's done in my life, um, and that was like really, maybe the number one thing was to be able to evangelize and proclaim that way.

Rachel Wong: 30:35

Um, so, you know, kind of receiving like the little ting tingling, I guess, if you call it that from the Lord, to just be like, okay, I think it's time to pass on the reins to someone else and that someone else being. You know other women like yourself who were, you know, starting new podcasts and new ministries just being able to make space and there's that phrase again, like for us as women, like we're called to make space in so many different ways. And yeah, so it's like being able to take that time and really listen, and I'm grateful for the time that he has given me to share a little bit of influence. And now it's a time perhaps for me to step back and to listen to him and listen to other women and see what else is going on.

Sheila Nonato: 31:31

Okay, awesome. And and the last podcast I was listening to of yours was the episode on the face of mercy. I don't know if you wanted to speak on that, I just thought it spoke to me because, yeah, I had myself gone through some mental health struggles in the past. I was in the Middle East in my 20s. I did my first journalism internship and I was covering the hospitals after terrorist attacks. It was in Jordan many, many years ago, but yeah, so I suffered from PTSD from that and I just, yeah, I think at that time this was I don't know when, was that now Mid-2000s? There wasn't really a lot of material or teachings on mental health and faith. Can you talk a little bit about that? How far have we advanced since then?

Rachel Wong: 32:29

Yeah, I mean. Well, first off, I just want to say to like thank you for you know, being like so willing and open to share that, and also the work that you did as a journalist and continue to do as a journalist. I think it's very important to have, like a Catholic voice, whether you're working for a Catholic outlet or not. So I just want to thank you and affirm you for that, sheila, in terms of like, yeah, mental health and Catholicism, like certainly for me, like it's also a very personal thing as well, like I suffer from depression and anxiety and had experienced many years of suicidal ideation as well. So it's something that I think for a long period of my life, I really felt the weight of having to keep both sides of myself, that being my Catholic self and also the self that was really struggling and suffering, apart and at bay and just not feeling like, oh, I can't coexist in the same body, so to speak. And I agree with you that, especially in those moments where I was and in that time of my life when I was going through that, I really didn't know where to turn to in terms of being able to reconcile both of those. So, when I think about where we are now, in 2024, I think that certainly there's greater openness to the fact that these types of things exist and because we're Catholic, you know, we're not immune to those things and I think that it's very important to certainly, like, have that spiritual foundation, like for our lives. But that should not be the be all and end all and ultimately we know and we trust that God is loving God and He'll take care of us. But there's also an invitation, I think, to really again, like you know, be a good steward of our body, of our physical health and our mental health. And the Lord has put in our midst many talented and gifted people who are doctors, who are, you know, Catholic therapists, Catholic psychologists. You know, I go to a psychologist who, or excuse me, a therapist. I go to a therapist who is, like, a practicing Catholic, and it's wonderful because we're able to have that common ground understanding where there are things that certainly, like, are just, you know, we just won't go there. If it's, like you know, not Catholic, then we're just not going to go there and he's not going to bring up any kind of things that would contradict my faith, because we have that shared understanding.

Rachel Wong: 35:14

So I think that at least, like in the Archdiocese of Vancouver, I know that they've been very good at providing like just access to resources, providing just access to resources, particularly therapists or psychologists or counselors who do have a Catholic background, like they themselves are practicing Catholic. And certainly there are many ministries like, as you know, the Face of Mercy and many others, a lot in the United States I don't know too much about here in Canada, but certainly there's a growing awareness and presence when it comes to these kinds of ministries and I think, all with the intention of really opening up the conversation and opening up the conversation more, because certainly it's been something that has grown in greater awareness in the secular environment. So to have that slowly, the secular environment, so to have that slowly, slowly but steadily come into the Catholic space is, I think, very important, just because I think there is like a natural tendency and I've experienced this as well where it's like there's a natural tendency, I think, to maybe over-spiritualize or perhaps like tell ourselves, tell other people, or maybe other people have told us to just pray harder or pray it away. And I think that you know, as people who have gone through our own struggles, like we know, that prayer, of course, is important and it should be a part of our routine and it should help. But we can have other things to supplement that, like, you know, going to see a counselor talking to a friend about it like a, yeah, trusted friend, um, you know, like changing our habits so that we are living a more like well-rounded life.

Rachel Wong: 36:59

So better sleeping habits, better eating habits, working out, um, spending time with friends, like whatever it might be, all the things that we might dub as self-care. It's not like the things like our faith and self-care, they're not mutually exclusive. So being able to balance all of that with the awareness and intention of growing as children of the Lord. So, yeah, I think just some kind of scattered thoughts on that question there, but certainly my hope and my intention is that more and more people continue to talk about it as they feel comfortable and that they find spaces where they feel comfortable. And I think really that's the key thing is finding those spaces and places where they do feel comfortable to open up.

Sheila Nonato: 37:56

Well, thank you for sharing that and for being vulnerable and open. See it as it's kind of like a wound or a wound that nobody sees. It's like a wound on your heart or on your soul that people it's an invisible wound that they don't see. Sometimes they don't know where to seek help. And, of course, our faith is always there. God is always there and, as you were saying, like for myself, I also found a wonderful Catholic therapist who sometimes says to me maybe it might do you some good to go to adoration.

Sheila Nonato: 38:32

Now, if it was a non-Catholic, I would never hear that. But yeah, like I was thinking, yes, that's so true. Sometimes, like I was saying earlier, we have to go through the cross earlier. We have to go through the cross and it's a tiny sliver of what Christ obviously endured. But just tiny taste of that suffering just made me more, I guess, made me want to love more, because I needed so much love from God. But I also knew maybe he's also calling me to be more loving from God. But I also knew maybe he's also calling me to be more loving, to be more open and also to be able to receive that love.

Sheila Nonato: 39:18

Yeah, it's a trying time and going through it alone is very difficult and, as you were saying, to reach out to trusted professionals is, yeah, it's going to help tremendously, because suffering alone is, it's a challenge. And, yeah, I'd really encourage the listeners if you're going through something, please do reach out to you, to your doctor, to a trusted health professional, and that, yeah, I just hope you receive the help that you need and that you deserve absolutely.

Sheila Nonato: 39:45

Was there anything else that you wanted to talk about?

Rachel Wong: 39:51

No, I mean, I think that I'm grateful for our conversation just because it has reminded me of a lot of the different ways that the Lord has moved in my own life, and I think anytime that there's an opportunity to be able to pause and reflect on what the Lord does is wonderful, just because our lives move at such breakneck speed that sometimes we forget how it is that we got here, because we're just so focused on getting ahead and getting to the next thing. So I'm so grateful for the opportunity to reflect and to share today and again, just to be with you, sheila. So thank you.

Sheila Nonato: 40:33

Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and your beautiful story and your beautiful podcast. I know you finished it, but I'm still listening to it.

Rachel Wong: 40:43

And I'm still getting many praises from it.

Sheila Nonato: 40:45

Yeah, thank you so much.

Sheila Nonato: 40:46

Thank you for sharing your talents because, like you were saying, some people you know want to remain silent, and that is fine, but you heard God's call to speak up and share your voice and your talents and your knowledge. And we are all benefiting from that, even now, even though the podcast has ended, but it still really lives on. So in the internet it, you know, it still continues. So thank you so much for that. Yeah, god bless, and I will be praying for you and your next chapter and I can't wait to see, to find out what that is, and I'm sure you are too.

Rachel Wong: 41:23

Yeah, I was going to say it's like yeah, me too, absolutely yeah, thank you so much. Thank you are too.

Sheila Nonato: 41:26

Yeah, I was going to say it's like, yeah, me too, absolutely yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much, god bless. Thank you. Thank you, god bless you, thank you, bye.

Sheila Nonato: 41:31

Thank you very much for joining us, Rachel Wong. We learned so much from you and your courageous adventure in discernment and also the discussion on the intersection of faith and mental wellness and your own journey in that. Thank you for being so raw and honest and open about that and I'm sure it's going to help others. And if you'd like to see what she's up to, you can catch her on Instagram at RCHLCWNG. I'll have that in the show notes on Instagram and I believe she's also on Substack (", so I'll have all that information in the show notes.

Sheila Nonato: 42:08

And if you see me wearing the same thing for the past three episodes, for the intros and outros, it's because I'm doing batch recordings just time for school. You know, in time for school, motherhood you kind of have to combine a lot of things at the same time and this is the time that I'm able to record and hopefully get these episodes weekly out to you and hopefully that will give you some encouragement or help you in some way. Thank you so much for joining us and we will continue the conversation on Feminine Genius with Sister Helena Burns. Watch out for that one too. Thank you so much, and God bless. Thank you for listening to the Veil and Armor podcast.

Co-Host: 42:53

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